The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org Title: Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44006] Language: English Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V6 *** Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by www.history-matters.com. Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain. INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CREATING A COMMISSION TO ASCERTAIN, EVALUATE, AND REPORT UPON THE FACTS RELATING TO THE ASSASSINATION OF THE LATE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND THE SUBSEQUENT VIOLENT DEATH OF THE MAN CHARGED WITH ASSASSINATION AND S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, A CONCURRENT RESOLUTION CONFERRING UPON THE COMMISSION THE POWER TO ADMINISTER oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas Volume VI UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON, D.C. U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, Chairman iii SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD MR. ALLEN W. DULLES MR. JOHN J. MCCLOY J. LEE RANKIN, General Counsel Assistant Counsel FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS JOSEPH A. BALL DAVID W. BELIN WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. MELVIN ARON EISENBERG BURT W. GRIFFIN LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. WESLEY J. LIEBELER NORMAN REDLICH W. DAVID SLAWSON ARLEN SPECTER SAMUEL A. STERN HOWARD P. WILLENSA Staff Members PHILLIP BARSON EDWARD A. CONROY JOHN HART ELY ALFRED GOLDBERG MURRAY J. LAULICHT ARTHUR MARMOR RICHARD M. MOSK JOHN J. O'BRIEN STUART POLLAK ALFREDDA SCOBEY CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report. A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice. Preface THE TESTIMONY OF THE FOLLOWING WITNESSES IS CONTAINED IN VOLUME VI: DRS. CHARLES J. CARRICO, MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY, WILLIAM KEM CLARK, ROBERT NELSON MCCLELLAND, CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER, MARION THOMAS JENKINS, RONALD COY JONES, DON TEEL CURTIS, FOUAD A BASHOUR, GENE COLEMAN AKIN, PAUL CONRAD PETERS, ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR., JACKIE HANSEN HUNT, KENNETH EVERETT SALYER, AND MARTIN G. WHITE, WHO ATTENDED PRESIDENT KENNEDY AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL; DRS. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW, CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY, GEORG T. SHIRES, AND RICHARD BROOKS DULANY, WHO ATTENDED GOVERNOR CONNALLY AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL; RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE, JANE CARO WESTER, HENRIETTA M. ROSS, R. J. JIMISON, AND DARRELL C. TOMLINSON, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING GOVERNOR CONNALLY'S STRETCHER; DIAN HAMILTON BOWRON, MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE, AND DORIS MAE NELSON, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S STRETCHER; CHARLE JACK PRICE, THE ADMINISTRATOR OF PARKLAND HOSPITAL; MALCOLM O. COUCH, TOM C. DILLARD, JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD, JAMES N. CRAWFORD, MARY ANN MITCHELL, BARBARA ROWLAND, RONALD B. FISCHER, ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS, JEAN LOLLIS HILL, AUSTIN L. MILLER, FR E. REILLY, EARLE V. BROWN, ROYCE G. SKELTON, S. M. HOLLAND, J. W. FOSTER, J. C. WHITE, JOE E. MURPHY, ROGER D. CRAIG, GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR., JAMES ELBERT ROMACK, LEE E. BOWERS, JR., B. J. MARTIN, BOBBY W. HARGIS, CLYDE A. HAYGOOD, E. D. BREWER, D. V. v HARKNESS, J. HERBERT SAWYER, AND GERALD DALTON HENSLEE, WHO WERE PRESENT AT THE ASSASSINATION SCENE; WILLIAM H. SHELLEY, NAT A PINKSTON, BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY, FRANKIE KAISER, CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS, TROY EUGENE WEST, DANNY G. ARCE, JOE R. MOLINA, JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY, EDDIE PIPER, VICTORIA ELIZABETH ADAMS, GENEVA L. HINE, AND DORIS BURNS, EMPLOYEES OF THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY; MARY E. BLEDSOE, WILLIAM W. WHALEY, AND MRS. EARLENE ROBERTS, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY CONCERNING OSWALD'S MOVEMENTS following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides, and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene. Contents Page Preface v Testimony of— Charles J. Carrico 1 Malcolm Oliver Perry 7 William Kemp Clark 18 Robert Nelson McClelland 30 Charles Rufus Baxter 39 Marion Thomas Jenkins 45 Ronald Coy Jones 51 Don Teel Curtis 57 Fouad A. Bashour 61 Gene Coleman Akin 63 Paul Conrad Peters 68 Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr 72 Jackie Hansen Hunt 76 Kenneth Everett Salyer 80 Martin G. White 82 Robert Shaw 83 Charles Francis Gregory 95 George T. Shires 104 Richard Brooks Dulany 113 Ruth Jeanette Standridge 115 Jane Carolyn Wester 120 Henrietta M. Ross 123 R. J. Jimison 125 Darrell C. Tomlimson 128 Diana Hamilton Bowron 134 Margaret M. Henchliffe 139 Doris Mae Nelson 143 Charles Jack Price 148 Malcolm O. Couch 153 Tom C. Dillard 162 James Robert Underwood 167 James N. Crawford 171 Mary Ann Mitchell 175 Barbara Rowland 177 Ronald B. Fischer 191 Robert Edwin Edwards 200 Jean Lollis Hill 205 Austin L. Miller 223 Frank E. Reilly 227 Earle V. Brown 231 Royce G. Skelton 236 S. M. Holland 239 J. W. Foster 248 J. C. White 253 vii viii Joe E. Murphy 256 Roger D. Craig 260 George W. Rackley, Sr 273 James Elbert Romack 277 Lee E. Bowers, Jr 284 B. J. Martin 289 Bobby W. Hargis 293 Clyde A. Haygood 296 E. D. Brewer 302 D. V. Harkness 308 J. Herbert Sawyer 315 Gerald Dalton Henslee 325 William H. Shelley 327 Nat A. Pinkston 334 Billy Nolan Lovelady 336 Frankie Kaiser 341 Charles Douglas Givens 345 Troy Eugene West 356 Danny G. Arce 363 Joe R. Molina 368 Jack Edwin Dougherty 373 Eddie Piper 382 Victoria Elizabeth Adams 386 Geneva L. Hine 393 Doris Burns 397 Mary E. Bledsoe 400 William W. Whaley 428 Earlene Roberts 431 Domingo Benavides 444 Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis 454 EXHIBITS INTRODUCED Bowron Exhibit No.: Page 2 138 3 138 4 138 Brewer Exhibit A 304 Brown Exhibit A 236 Davis Exhibit No.: 1 457 2 463 3 465 Dillard Exhibit: A 166 B 166 C 166 D 166 Dougherty Exhibit: A 382 B 382 C 382 Edwards Exhibit A 205 Fischer Exhibit No. 1 198 Foster Exhibit: A 249 B 253 Giesecke Exhibit No. 1 73 Gregory Exhibit No. 1 100 Hill Exhibit No. 5 223 Holland Exhibit: A 242 B 242 C 243 D 245 Jenkins Exhibit No. 36 50 Jones Exhibit No. 1 55 Kaiser Exhibit: A 344 B 344 C 344 Miller Exhibit A 227 Molina Exhibit A 368 Murphy Exhibit A 260 Nelson Exhibit No. 1 147 Piper Exhibit A 386 Price Exhibit No. 2 148 3 149 4 149 5 150 6 150 7 150 8 150 9 150 10 151 11 151 12 151 13 151 14 151 15 151 16 151 17 151 18 151 19 151 20 151 21 151 22 151 23 151 24 151 25 151 26 152 27 152 28 152 29 152 30 152 31 152 32 152 33 152 34 152 35 152 Reilly Exhibit A 231 Sawyer Exhibit: A 318 B 322 Skelton Exhibit A 239 Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 134 ix Whaley Exhibit A 430 White Exhibit A 254 Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO THE TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO WAS TAKEN AT 9:30 A.M., ON MARCH 25, 1964, AT PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL, DALLAS, TEX., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. SPECTER. MAY THE RECORD SHOW THAT DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO IS PRESENT IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER REQUEST FOR HIM TO APPEAR SO THAT HIS DEPOSITION MAY BE TAKEN IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY IN CONNECTION WITH THE INQUIRY INTO ALL PHASES OF THAT ASSASSINATION, INCLUDING MEDICAL CARE RENDERED AT PARKLA Memorial Hospital. DR. CARRICO HAS BEEN ASKED TO TESTIFY RELATING TO THE TREATMENT WHICH HE RENDERED THE PRESIDENT AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL. WITH preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise your right hand. DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU WILL GIVE BEFORE THE PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION IN THIS DEPOSITION PROCEEDING WILL BE THE truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Dr. CARRICO. I do. Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico. Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? Dr. CARRICO. Physician. Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please? DR. CARRICO. I ATTENDED GRADE SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL IN DENTON, TEX.; RECEIVED A BACHELOR OF SCIENCE IN CHEMISTRY FROM NORTH TEXAS STATE COLLEGE IN 1957, AND AN M.D. FROM SOUTHWESTERN MEDICAL SCHOOL IN 1961, AND SERVED AN INTERNSHIP AT PARKLAND MEMORIA Hospital from 1961 to 1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by my residency here. Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor? Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will qualify me for my boards in general surgery. Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at Parkland Hospital? Dr. CARRICO. AT THAT TIME I WAS ASSIGNED TO THE ELECTIVE SURGERY SERVICE AND WAS IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM SEEING SOME PATIENTS FOR evaluation for admission to the hospital. Mr. SPECTER. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock noon? Dr. CARRICO. APPROXIMATELY 12 NOON OR SHORTLY THEREAFTER I WAS IN THE CLINIC AND WAS CALLED TO COME INTO THE EMERGENCY ROOM TO see these people and evaluate them for admission and treatment. Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the way to the hospital at approximately 12:30? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. In which President Kennedy was involved? Dr. CARRICO. AT THAT TIME I WAS IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM SEEING THESE PATIENTS AND THE CALL WAS RECEIVED THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN shot and was on his way to the hospital. Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when you received that call? Dr. CARRICO. This was probably shortly after 12:30. 1 2 Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that call was received did the President's party actually arrive at Parkland? Dr. CARRICO. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less. Mr. SPECTER. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's party at Parkland, please. Dr. CARRICO. WE WERE IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM PREPARING EQUIPMENT IN RESPONSE TO THE CALL WE HAD RECEIVED WHEN THE NURSE SAID over the intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and was taken to one of the trauma rooms. Mr. SPECTER. And what identification was given to the trauma room to which Governor Connally was taken? Dr. CARRICO. Trauma room 2. Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came into the emergency area? Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. DON CURTIS, ORAL SURGERY RESIDENT, AND I BELIEVE MARTIN WHITE, THE INTERN, WAS THERE. THESE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE I REMEMBER BEING PRESEN at that time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and the rest of the staff. Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President Kennedy? Dr. CARRICO. No, no, sir; he didn't. Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of President Kennedy? Dr. CARRICO. I believe he was in there and did the—he helped Dr. Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown. Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Dulany do? Dr. CARRICO. DR. DULANY AND I INITIALLY WENT TO SEE THE GOVERNOR, AS I SAID, AND HE STAYED WITH THE GOVERNOR WHILE I WENT TO ATTEN to the President, care for the President. Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his arrival at Parkland Hospital? Dr. CARRICO. I was. Mr. SPECTER. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as best you can recollect it? Dr. CARRICO. MRS. KENNEDY WAS THERE, AND THERE WERE SOME MEN IN THE ROOM, WHO I ASSUMED WERE SECRET SERVICE MEN; I DON'T know. Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition to Miss Bowron? Dr. CARRICO. No, I don't recall any of them. Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon his arrival? Dr. CARRICO. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow, spasmodic, described as agonal. Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for just a moment there, Doctor? DR. CARRICO. THESE ARE RESPIRATIONS SEEN IN ONE WHO HAS LOST THE NORMAL COORDINATED CENTRAL CONTROL OF RESPIRATION. THESE ARE spasmodic and usually reflect a terminal patient. Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe your observations of the President? DR. CARRICO. HIS—THE PRESIDENT'S COLOR—I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID—HE WAS AN ASHEN, BLUISH, GREY, CYANOTIC, HE WAS MAKING NO SPONTANEOUS MOVEMENTS, I MEAN, NO VOLUNTARY MOVEMENTS AT ALL. WE OPENED HIS SHIRT AND COAT AND TIE AND OBSERVED A SMALL WOUND IN THE ANTERIOR LOWER THIRD OF THE NECK, LISTENED VERY BRIEFLY, HEARD A FEW CARDIAC BEATS, FELT THE PRESIDENT'S BACK, AND DETECTED NO LARGE SUCKING CHEST WOUNDS, AND THEN PROCEEDED TO THE EXAMINATION OF HIS HEAD. THE LARGE SKULL AND SCALP WOUND HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY OBSERVED AND WAS INSPECTED A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY. THERE SEEMED TO BE A 4–5 CM. AREA OF AVULSION OF THE SCALP AND THE SKULL WAS FRAGMENTED AND BLEEDING CEREBRAL AND CEREBELLAR TISSUE. THE PUPILS WERE INSPECTED AND SEEMED TO BE BILATERALLY DILATED AND FIXED. NO PULSE WAS PRESENT, AND AT THAT TIME, BECAUSE OF THE INADEQUATE RESPIRATIONS AND THE APPARENT AIRWAY INJURY, A CUFFED ENDOTRACHEAL TUB WAS INTRODUCED, EMPLOYING A LARYNZO SCOPE. THROUGH THE LARYNZO SCOPE THERE SEEMED TO BE SOME HEMATOMA AROUND THE LARYNX AND IMMEDIATELY BELOW THE LARYNX WAS SEEN THE RAGGED TRACHEAL INJURY. THE ENDOTRACHEAL TUBE WAS INSERTED PAST THIS INJURY, THE CUFF INFLAT AND THE TUBE WAS CONNECTED TO A RESPIRATOR TO ASSIST THE INADEQUATE RESPIRATION. AT ABOUT THIS POINT THE NURSE REPORTED THAT NO BLO pressure was obtained. Mr. SPECTER. DR. CARRICO, WITH RESPECT TO THIS SMALL WOUND IN THE ANTERIOR THIRD OF THE NECK WHICH YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED, COULD you be any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound? Dr. CARRICO. THIS WAS PROBABLY A 4–7 MM. WOUND, ALMOST IN THE MIDLINE, MAYBE A LITTLE TO THE RIGHT OF THE MIDLINE, AND BELOW THE thyroid cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged edges or stellate lacerations. Mr. SPECTER. You said you felt the President's back? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of the back involved at that time? DR. CARRICO. WITHOUT TAKING THE TIME TO ROLL HIM OVER AND LOOK OR TO WASH OFF THE BLOOD AND DEBRIS, AND WHILE HIS COAT AND SHIRT WERE STILL ON HIS ARMS—I JUST PLACED MY HANDS AT ABOUT HIS BELTLINE OR A LITTLE ABOVE AND BY SLOWLY MOVING MY HANDS UPWARD DETECTED that there was no large violation of the pleural cavity. 3 Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not take the time to turn him over? Dr. CARRICO. THIS MAN WAS IN OBVIOUS EXTREME DISTRESS AND ANY MORE THOROUGH INSPECTION WOULD HAVE INVOLVED SEVERAL MINUTES— WELL, SEVERAL—CONSIDERABLE TIME WHICH AT THIS JUNCTURE WAS NOT AVAILABLE. A THOROUGH INSPECTION WOULD HAVE INVOLVED WASHING AND CLEANSING THE BACK, AND THIS IS NOT PRACTICAL IN TREATING AN ACUTELY INJURED PATIENT. YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE WHICH THINGS, WHICH A immediately life threatening and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of the injuries. Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back? DR. CARRICO. NO, SIR. BEFORE—WELL, IN TRYING TO TREAT AN ACUTELY INJURED PATIENT, YOU HAVE TO ESTABLISH AN AIRWAY, ADEQUATE VENTILATION AND YOU HAVE TO ESTABLISH ADEQUATE CIRCULATION. BEFORE THIS WAS ACCOMPLISHED THE PRESIDENT'S CARDIAC ACTIVITY HAD CEASED AN closed cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his back. Mr. SPECTER. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after he had expired? Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Mr. SPECTER. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his back? Dr. CARRICO. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it. Mr. SPECTER. YOU HAD BEGUN TO DESCRIBE SOME OF THE ACTION TAKEN IN ORDER TO ENDEAVOR TO REVIVE THE PRESIDENT. WILL YOU CONTINUE with that description, please? Dr. CARRICO. I BELIEVE WE WERE TO WHERE THE ENDOTRACHEAL TUBE HAD BEEN INSERTED. AFTER THIS, THE PRESIDENT—HIS RESPIRATIONS WERE ASSISTED BY THE BENNETT MACHINE. WE AGAIN LISTENED TO HIS CHEST TO ATTEMPT TO EVALUATE THE RESPIRATIONS. BREATH SOUNDS WERE DIMINISHED ESPECIALLY ON THE RIGHT, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE ENDOTRACHEAL TUBE WAS IN PLACE AND THE CUFF INFLATED, THERE CONTINUED TO BE SOME LEA AROUND THE TRACHEAL WOUND. FOR THIS REASON DR. PERRY ELECTED TO PERFORM A TRACHEOTOMY, AND INSTRUCTED SOME OF THE OTHER PHYSICIANS THE ROOM TO INSERT CHEST TUBES, THORACOTOMY TUBES. AT THE BEGINNING OF THE RESUSCITATION ATTEMPT INTRAVENOUS INFUSIONS HAD BEEN STARTE USING POLYETHYLENE CATHETERS BY VENESECTION, LACTATED RENGER SOLUTION, AND UNCROSS-MATCHED TYPE O RH NEGATIVE BLOODS WERE ADMINISTERED AND 300 MG. OF HYDROCORTISONE WERE ADMINISTERED. SHORTLY AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE TRACHEOTOMY, DR. BASHOUR ARRIVE AND HAD CONNECTED THE CARDIAC MONITOR. ALTHOUGH I NEVER SAW EVIDENCE OF CARDIAC ACTIVITY, ELECTRICAL CARDIAC ACTIVITY, DR. CLARK STA THAT THERE WAS A PERCEPTIBLE ELECTRICAL BEAT WHICH SHORTLY THEREAFTER DISAPPEARED, AND CLOSED CARDIAC MASSAGE WAS INSTITUTED. THE CARDI MASSAGE WAS SUCCESSFUL IN MAINTAINING CAROTID AND RADIAL PULSES, BUT THE PATIENT'S STATE RAPIDLY DETERIORATED AND AT APPROXIMATELY o'clock he was pronounced dead. Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death? Dr. CARRICO. A head injury. Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the treatment which was given to the President as best you recollect it? Dr. CARRICO. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all—I'm sorry. Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the President's clothing? Dr. CARRICO. We did not do that. Mr. SPECTER. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico? DR. CARRICO. AGAIN, THIS WAS A MATTER OF TIME. THE CLOTHES WERE REMOVED BY THE NURSES, AS IS THE USUAL PRACTICE, AND THE FULL attention was devoted to trying to resuscitate the President. Mr. SPECTER. ON THE EXAMINATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S BACK WHICH YOU DESCRIBED THAT YOU PERFORMED, DID YOU NOTE ANY BLEEDING FROM the back? DR. CARRICO. THERE WAS CONSIDERABLE BLOOD ON THE CART AND ON HIS BACK. I COULD NOT TELL IF THIS CAME FROM HIS BACK OR HAD FALLEN down from the head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there. Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect to whether he had any back wound? Dr. CARRICO. I DID NOT FEEL ANY. NOW, THIS CERTAINLY WOULDN'T DETECT A SMALL BULLET ENTRANCE. ALL THIS EXAMINATION IS DESIGNED TO D to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest posteriorly. Mr. SPECTER. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly? Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with respect to the presence of a back brace, if any? Dr. CARRICO. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we noted he was wearing a standard back support. Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that back support, please? Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front. Mr. SPECTER. How wide was it? Dr. CARRICO. How wide? Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. Dr. CARRICO. I don't know; I didn't examine below—you see—as I recall, it came about to his umbilicus—navel area. 4 Mr. SPECTER. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips that you observed? Dr. CARRICO. No; I didn't remove his pants. Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his body when his pants were removed? Dr. CARRICO. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look. Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President Kennedy? DR. CARRICO. WELL, OF COURSE, DR. PERRY, DR. CLARK, DR. BAXTER, DR. MCCLELLAND, DR. PETERS WAS IN THE ROOM, DR. BASHOUR, DR RONALD JONES, DR. CURTIS, I BELIEVE, DR. WHITE WAS THERE—INITIALLY, AT LEAST, I DON'T RECALL RIGHT OFFHAND ANYONE ELSE. THERE WERE O doctors in there, I just can't specifically remember—there were 10 or 15 people in the room before it was over. Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of the punctate wound in the President's throat? Dr. CARRICO. NO; I REALLY DON'T—JUST ON THE BASIS OF WHAT I KNOW. WE DIDN'T MAKE AN ATTEMPT, AS YOU KNOW, TO ASCERTAIN THE TRACK of the bullets. Mr. SPECTER. I can't hear you. Dr. CARRICO. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the bullets. Mr. SPECTER. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track of the bullets? DR. CARRICO. AGAIN, IN TRYING TO RESUSCITATE THE PRESIDENT, THE TIME TO DO THIS WAS NOT AVAILABLE. THE EXAMINATION CONDUCTED WAS one to try to establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct these. Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound? Dr. CARRICO. Yes; after that afternoon. Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations were there? DR. CARRICO. AS I RECALL, DR. PERRY AND I TALKED AND TRIED AFTER—LATER IN THE AFTERNOON TO DETERMINE WHAT EXACTLY HAD HAPPEN AND WE WERE NOT AWARE OF THE MISSILE WOUND TO THE BACK, AND POSTULATED THAT THIS WAS EITHER A TANGENTIAL WOUND FROM A FRAGMEN possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound. Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an entry or exit wound, in your opinion? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Or, did it look to be more one than the other? Dr. CARRICO. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck. MR. SPECTER. DR. CARRICO, ASSUME THESE FACTS, IF YOU WILL—FIRST, THAT PRESIDENT KENNEDY WAS STRUCK BY A 6.5-MM. MISSILE WHICH ENTERED THE UPPER-RIGHT POSTERIOR THORAX, JUST ABOVE THE SCAPULA, BEING 14 CM. FROM THE TIP OF THE RIGHT ACROMION, A-C-R-O-M-I-O-N (SPELLING) PROCESS, AND 14 CM. BELOW THE TIP OF THE RIGHT MASTOID PROCESS, AND THAT THE MISSILE TRAVELED BETWEEN TWO STRAP MUSCLES, PROCEEDED THROUGH THE FASCIA CHANNEL WITHOUT VIOLATING THE PLEURAL CAVITY, STRIKING THE SIDE OF THE TRACHEA AND EXITING IN THE LOWER T THE ANTERIOR THROAT. UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH I HAVE JUST DESCRIBED TO YOU, WOULD THE WOUND WHICH YOU OBSERVED ON THE PRESIDENT'S THROAT BE CONSISTENT WITH THE DAMAGE WHICH A 6.5-MM. MISSILE, TRAVELING AT THE RATE OF APPROXIMATELY 2,000 FEET PER SECOND, that being muzzle velocity, with the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with the missile taking the path I have just described to you? Dr. CARRICO. I certainly think it could. Mr. SPECTER. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce that result? Dr. CARRICO. I THINK A MISSILE OF THIS SIZE, TRAVELING IN SUCH A DIRECTION THAT IT HAD VERY LITTLE DEFORMITY, STRUCK NOTHING WHICH WO CAUSE IT TO BEGIN TUMBLING, AND WAS SLOWED VERY LITTLE BY PASSING THROUGH THIS RELATIVELY EASY TRAVERSED PLANES, WOULD NOT EXPEND A GREA deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing a small, round, even wound. Mr. SPECTER. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds? Dr. CARRICO. IN WORKING IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM AT PARKLAND, WE HAVE SEEN A FAIRLY GOOD NUMBER OF GUNSHOT WOUNDS, AND WITH .22 and .25 caliber weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures. Mr. SPECTER. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass through to which you have just referred? Dr. CARRICO. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the muscles of the leg superficially. Mr. SPECTER. APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY MISSILE WOUNDS, BULLET WOUNDS, HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO OBSERVE IN YOUR PRACTICE, Doctor? Dr. CARRICO. I would guess 150 or 200. MR. SPECTER. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE AS PRECISELY FOR ME AS POSSIBLE THE NATURE OF THE HEAD WOUND WHICH YOU OBSERVED ON THE President? DR. CARRICO. THE WOUND THAT I SAW WAS A LARGE GAPING WOUND, LOCATED IN THE RIGHT OCCIPITOPARIETAL AREA. I WOULD ESTIMATE TO BE ABOUT 5 TO 7 CM. IN SIZE, MORE OR LESS CIRCULAR, WITH AVULSIONS OF THE CALVARIUM AND SCALP TISSUE. AS I STATED BEFORE, I BELIEVE THERE WAS shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura. 5 6 Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the one you have just described? Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I did not. Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the large gaping hole which you described? Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Mr. SPECTER. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION, DOCTOR, IF YOU HAVE ONE, AS TO HOW MANY BULLETS WERE INVOLVED IN THE INJURIES INFLICTED ON THE President? Dr. CARRICO. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two. Mr. SPECTER. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government? Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after the President's death. Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion? Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't recall his name. Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview? Dr. CARRICO. WE SPOKE TO HIM IN DR. SHIRES' OFFICE IN THE MEDICAL SCHOOL CONCERNING THE PRESIDENT'S DEATH, MOSTLY MY PART WAS JUST a statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true. Mr. SPECTER. I NOW CALL YOUR ATTENTION, DOCTOR, TO A DOCUMENT HERETOFORE IDENTIFIED AS COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 392, TO A 2-PAGE SUMMARY WHICH PURPORTS TO BEAR YOUR SIGNATURE, AND DATED NOVEMBER 22, 1963, 1626 HOURS, AND ASK YOU FIRST OF ALL IF THAT IS A photostatic copy of a report which you submitted? Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it is. Mr. SPECTER. And, is that your signature at the end? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct? Dr. CARRICO. They are. Mr. SPECTER. WITH RESPECT TO THIS NOTATION OF A RAGGED WOUND OF THE TRACHEA, WHICH IS CONTAINED IN YOUR REPORT, COULD YOU DESCRIBE that in more specific detail? Dr. CARRICO. IN INSERTING THE ENDOTRACHEAL TUBE, A LARYNZO SCOPE WAS INSERTED AND IT WAS NOTED THAT THERE WAS SOME DISCOLORATION AT THE LATERAL EDGE OF THE LARYNX AND THERE APPEARED TO BE SOME SWELLING AND HEMATOMA AND IN LOOKING THROUGH THE CHORDS WHICH WER partially open, a ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This was the extent of what I saw. Mr. SPECTER. Would that specific portion of the wound give any indication as to direction of the bullet? Dr. CARRICO. No; it wouldn't. Mr. SPECTER. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give any indication of the direction of the bullet? Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. MR. SPECTER. DID THE SECRET SERVICE MAN WHOM YOU JUST DESCRIBED ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS BEYOND WHETHER THE CONTENTS OF YOUR report were true? Dr. CARRICO. I CAN'T RECALL ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. HE DID ASK SOME OTHERS AND THEY DID CONCERN THE WOUNDS, AND WHAT WE FELT THE wounds were from, the direction, and so forth. Mr. SPECTER. And what response did you make to those inquiries? Dr. CARRICO. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't remember specifically. Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal Government prior to today? Dr. CARRICO. Not in connection with this. Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with something else? Dr. CARRICO. Just some Government employment—Civil Service. Mr. SPECTER. BUT THE ONLY TIME YOU TALKED TO ANYONE ABOUT YOUR TREATMENT OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY AND YOUR OBSERVATIONS RELATING T that treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service? Dr. CARRICO. YES; EXCEPT I JUST RECALLED SINCE THAT TIME, ANOTHER SECRET SERVICE AGENT—I DID SPEAK TO HIM BRIEFLY. HE ASKED ME IF I had any other information and I said "no". Mr. SPECTER. Is that the total contents of that conversation? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. MR. SPECTER. PRIOR TO THE TIME WE WENT ON THE RECORD HERE BEFORE YOU WERE SWORN IN, DID YOU AND I HAVE A BRIEF CONVERSATION about the purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions which I would ask you? Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. 7 MR. SPECTER. AND WAS THE INFORMATION WHICH YOU GAVE ME AT THAT TIME THE SAME AS THAT TO WHICH YOU HAVE TESTIFIED HERE ON THE record? Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it was. Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your treatment and observations of President Kennedy? Dr. CARRICO. Not as I recall. Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present time? Dr. CARRICO. Twenty-eight. Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found in the President's body. Dr. CARRICO. Not by us. Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort concerning your treatment of President Kennedy? Dr. CARRICO. NOT CONCERNING THE TREATMENT. I HAVE A NOTE I WROTE TO MY CHILDREN FOR THEM TO READ SOME DAY, BUT IT DOESN'T CONCERN the treatment. Mr. SPECTER. What does that concern? Dr. CARRICO. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why it happened—maybe. Mr. SPECTER. Personal observations on your part? Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in any of the press conferences? Dr. CARRICO. No. Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance in any way to the President's Commission? Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I don't believe I do. MR. SPECTER. DR. CARRICO, HAVE I MADE AVAILABLE TO YOU A LETTER REQUESTING YOUR APPEARANCE ON MONDAY, MARCH 30, BEFORE THE Commission, and do you acknowledge receipt of that? Dr. CARRICO. I do. Mr. SPECTER. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at that time? Dr. CARRICO. I certainly can. Mr. SPECTER. Washington, D.C. Dr. CARRICO. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico. Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY THE TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY WAS TAKEN AT 3:25 P.M., ON MARCH 25, 1964, AT PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL, DALLAS Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. MR. SPECTER. MAY THE RECORD SHOW THAT DR. MALCOLM O. PERRY IS PRESENT IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER REQUEST THAT HE APPEAR HERE TO HAVE HIS DEPOSITION TAKEN IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, WHICH IS NOW INQUIRING INTO ALL FACETS OF THE SHOOTING, INCLUDING THE MEDICAL ATTENTION RECEIVED BY PRESIDENT KENNEDY AT PARKLAND Hospital, in which Dr. Perry participated. With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand? DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU GIVE BEFORE THE PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION IN THESE DEPOSITION PROCEEDINGS WILL BE THE truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Dr. PERRY. I do. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, please? Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry. Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon. 8 Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you? Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four. Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas? Dr. PERRY. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please? Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school? Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine. Dr. PERRY. I ATTENDED HIGH SCHOOL AT ALLEN HIGH SCHOOL AND AT PLANO HIGH SCHOOL, GRADUATING FROM THE LATTER IN 1947. I ENTERED T UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS FROM WHENCE I DULY GRADUATED WITH A DEGREE OF BACHELOR OF ARTS IN 1951. I WENT TO SOUTHWESTERN MEDICAL SCHOO OF THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS FOR THE SUBSEQUENT 4 YEARS, GRADUATING IN 1955 WITH A DEGREE OF DOCTOR OF MEDICINE. I INTERNED AT LETTERMAN ARMY HOSPITAL IN SAN FRANCISCO, AND RETURNED TO A RESIDENCY IN SURGERY AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL IN JULY 1958. I FINISHED THAT RESIDENCY JUNE 1962, AND THEN RETURNED TO SAN FRANCISCO AND SPENT 1 YEAR AS ADDITIONAL SPECIALIZATION IN VASCULAR SURGERY. I THEN RETURNED September 1963, to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of surgery. Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963? DR. PERRY. WELL, AS IS ACCUSTOMED, I WAS AT THAT TIME ON TWO SERVICES, BOTH A GENERAL SURGERY SERVICE AND A VASCULAR SURGERY service as a consultant and attending surgeon. Mr. SPECTER. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after noontime on November 22? DR. PERRY. WELL, AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT IN QUESTION, I WAS HAVING LUNCH IN THE MAIN DINING ROOM WITH THE CHIEF RESIDENT, DR Ronald Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the residents. Mr. SPECTER. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon? Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, WHO IS THE CHIEF OF SURGERY. I KNEW THAT DR. SHIRES WAS IN GALVESTON GIVING A PAPER AND WAS NOT IN THE HOSPITAL, SO DR. JONES PICKED UP THE PAGE TO SEE IF HE OR I COULD BE OF ASSISTANCE. WE WERE INFORMED BY THE HOSPITAL OPERATOR THAT MR. KENNEDY HAD BEEN SHOT AND WAS being brought to Parkland Hospital for care. Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those factors? DR. PERRY. THE DINING ROOM WAS LOCATED ONE FLOOR UP FROM THE EMERGENCY ROOM, SO DR. JONES AND I WENT IMMEDIATELY TO THE emergency room to render what assistance we could. AT THE TIME OF OUR ARRIVAL IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM, THE PRESIDENT WAS ALREADY THERE, AND AS I ENTERED TRAUMA ROOM NO. 1, DR. JAMES Carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration. Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, at that time? DR. PERRY. I CANNOT WITH ACCURACY RELATE ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE—DR. CARRICO, I SAW AND SPOKE TO BRIEFLY. THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE IN THE ROOM. THERE WERE SEVERAL NURSES THERE—I DON'T KNOW AT THIS TIME WHO THEY WERE. MRS. KENNEDY WAS IN THE ROOM AND THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN WITH HER AND THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHER GENTLEMEN BOTH IN THE DOOR AND RIGHT OUTSIDE THE DOOR TO THE room. Some of them, I assume, part of the legal force. Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time? Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico—I had the impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an impression gathered after the fact. Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition at the time you first saw him? Dr. PERRY. HE WAS LYING SUPINE ON THE EMERGENCY CART DIRECTLY IN THE CENTER OF THE ROOM UNDER THE OVERHEAD LAMP. HIS SHIRT HAD, BEEN REMOVED, AND INTRAVENOUS INFUSION WAS BEING BEGUN IN THE RIGHT LEG, I BELIEVE. DR. CARRICO WAS AT THE HEAD OF THE TABLE ATTACHING TH oxygen apparatus to assist in respiration. I NOTED THERE WAS A LARGE WOUND OF THE RIGHT POSTERIOR PARIETAL AREA IN THE HEAD EXPOSING LACERATED BRAIN. THERE WAS BLOOD AND BRAI TISSUE ON THE CART. THE PRESIDENT'S EYES WERE DEVIATED AND DILATED AND HE WAS UNRESPONSIVE. THERE WAS A SMALL WOUND IN THE LOWER anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly. Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please? Dr. PERRY. THE WOUND WAS ROUGHLY SPHERICAL TO OVAL IN SHAPE, NOT A PUNCHED-OUT WOUND, ACTUALLY, NOR WAS IT PARTICULARLY RAGGED. IT was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly. Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect? Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so. Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound? Dr. PERRY. I think so. Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the President? 9 Dr. PERRY. SPASMODIC RESPIRATORY EFFORTS WERE OBVIOUS, BUT I DID NOT DETECT A PULSE NOR A HEART BEAT ON A VERY RAPID EXAMINATION. IT WAS APPARENT THAT RESPIRATIONS WERE INEFFECTIVE, EVEN WITH THE USE OF THE ENDOTRACHEAL TUBE AND OXYGEN. AT THAT POINT I ASKED D CARRICO IF THIS WAS A WOUND IN HIS NECK OR HAD HE BEGUN THE TRACHEOTOMY, AND HE SAID IT WAS A WOUND AND I, AT THAT POINT, ASKED someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure. MR. SPECTER. NOW, HAVE YOU DESCRIBED EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN RECOLLECT ABOUT YOUR OBSERVATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT BEFORE YOU started to work on him? Dr. PERRY. THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE TO THAT CURSORY EXAMINATION OF ANY OTHER WOUND. I DID NOT MOVE THE PRESIDENT. I DID NOT TURN HIM over. Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over? Dr. PERRY. AT THAT POINT IT WAS NECESSARY TO ATTEND TO THE EMERGENT PROCEDURE AND A SATISFACTORY EFFECTIVE AIRWAY IS UPPERMOST IN such a condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail. Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over? Dr. PERRY. I did not. Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him? DR. PERRY. AFTER THE TRACHEOTOMY TUBE WAS IN PLACE AND WE WERE BREATHING FOR HIM, DR. CLARK AND I HAD BEGUN EXTERNAL CARDIAC MASSAGE, SINCE WE HAD BEEN UNABLE TO DETECT A HEART BEAT, BLOOD PRESSURE, OR PULSE. I CONTINUED WITH THE CARDIAC MASSAGE WHILE DR. CLARK EXAMINED THE HEAD WOUND, AND HE AND DR. JENKINS CONFERRED IN REGARD TO THE ELECTROCARDIOGRAM. IT WAS DETERMINED THAT NONE O the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned. I HAD NO FURTHER BUSINESS IN THE ROOM AT THAT POINT, AND I LEFT THE ROOM MOMENTARILY. I RETURNED WITHIN A MINUTE OR SO, BECAUSE I HA LEFT MY COAT WHERE I DROPPED IT AND ASKED ONE OF THE NURSES TO HAND ME MY COAT, AND I LEFT THE ROOM AND WENT TO THE OPERATING SUITE from there. Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy? Dr. PERRY. It did. Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in the Emergency Room? Dr. PERRY. I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE TIME. IT WAS ABOUT 12:30 OR SO WHEN I WAS EATING AND THE CALL MUST HAVE COME THEREABOUTS, AND I didn't look at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it again until after I had left the room. Mr. SPECTER. WHAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE AS TO THE TIME WHICH ELAPSED FROM THE POINT THAT YOU KNEW IT WAS 12:30, UNTIL THE TIME YOU arrived at the emergency room? Dr. PERRY. IT MUST HAVE BEEN WITHIN THE NEXT FEW MINUTES. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. AS I SAY, WE WERE SITTING THERE EATING AND I HAD NO occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to consult it further. Mr. SPECTER. WHAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE AS TO THE TIME YOU LEFT THE EMERGENCY ROOM AFTER FINISHING YOUR TREATMENT AND WORK ON TH President? Dr. PERRY. AFTER I LEFT TRAUMA ROOM NO. 1, I WENT OUTSIDE AND WASHED MY HANDS AND THEN I RETRIEVED MY COAT AND I SAT DOWN FOR A FEW MINUTES IN A CHAIR THERE IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM FOR PROBABLY 10 OR 15 MINUTES, I SUPPOSE, AND THEN I WENT FROM THERE TO THE OPERATING SUITE TO ASSIST IN THE CARE OF THE GOVERNOR, SO I MUST HAVE LEFT THE EMERGENCY ROOM PROBABLY SOMEWHERE AROUND 1:15 OR 1:20, I would gather. Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to be dead? Dr. PERRY. I DON'T KNOW THIS FOR A FACT, OTHER THAN WHAT WAS RELATED TO ME BY DR. CLARK, AND HE TELLS ME THAT THIS WAS AT 1 O'CLOC Once again, I did not verify the time. Mr. SPECTER. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to revive the President? Dr. PERRY. THERE WERE OTHER PROCEDURES DONE THAT I DID NOT DO DURING THIS PERIOD. I DID NOT DESCRIBE IN DETAIL THE PERFORMANCE OF the tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, unless you want it. Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were followed in the efforts to save the President's life? Dr. PERRY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, TO REGRESS, THEN, AT THE TIME I BEGAN THE TRACHEOTOMY, I MADE AN INCISION RIGHT THROUGH THE WOUND WHI was present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in the underlying trachea. I MADE A TRANSVERSE INCISION RIGHT THROUGH THIS WOUND AND CARRIED IT DOWN TO THE SUPERFICIAL FASCIA, TO EXPOSE THE STRAP MUSCLES OVERLYING THE THYROID AND THE TRACHEA. THERE WAS AN INJURY TO THE RIGHT LATERAL ASPECT OF THE TRACHEA AT THE LEVEL OF THE EXTERNAL WOU TRACHEA WAS DEVIATED SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT AND IT WAS NECESSARY TO DIVIDE THE STRAP MUSCLES ON THE LEFT SIDE IN ORDER TO GAIN ACCESS TO T TRACHEA. AT THIS POINT, I RECALL, DR. JONES RIGHT ON MY LEFT WAS PLACING A CATHETER INTO A VEIN IN THE LEFT ARM BECAUSE HE HANDED ME necessary instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure. THE WOUND IN THE TRACHEA WAS THEN ENLARGED TO ADMIT A CUFFED TRACHEOTOMY TUBE TO SUPPORT RESPIRATION. I NOTED THAT THERE WAS FR air and blood in the superior right mediastinum. ALTHOUGH I SAW NO INJURY TO THE LUNG OR TO THE PLEURAL SPACE, THE PRESENCE OF THIS FREE BLOOD AND AIR IN THIS AREA COULD BE INDICATIVE A WOUND OF THE RIGHT HEMITHORAX, AND I ASKED THAT SOMEONE PUT A RIGHT CHEST TUBE IN FOR SEAL DRAINAGE. AT THE TIME I DID NOT KNOW WH did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage. 10 BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS AND FLUID TRANSFUSIONS WERE BEING GIVEN AT THIS TIME, AND THROUGH THE PREVIOUS VENESECTIONS THAT HAD BEEN DONE BY Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico. ALSO, THE PRESIDENT HAD RECEIVED 300 MG. OF SOLUCORTEF IN ORDER TO SUPPORT HIS ADRENAL GLANDS, SINCE IT WAS COMMON MEDICAL knowledge that he suffered from adrenal insufficiency. OF COURSE, OXYGEN AND PRESSURE BREATHING WERE BEING EFFECTED UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF DR. JENKINS AND DR. GIESECKE, WHO WERE handling the anesthesia machine at the head of the table. DR. BASHOUR AND DR. SELDIN, IN ADDITION TO DR. CLARK, HAD ARRIVED AND ALSO ASSISTED IN MONITORING CARDIAC ACTIONS, AS INDICATED BY the oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope. Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures performed on the President? Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with. MR. SPECTER. ARE THERE ANY DOCTORS WHO PARTICIPATED OTHER THAN THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE ALREADY IDENTIFIED IN THE COURSE OF YOUR description? Dr. PERRY. YES, SIR; IMMEDIATELY ON ARRIVING THERE, AND AS I SAY, DR. JONES AND I, AND I SAW DR. CARRICO, AND I HAVE THE IMPRESSION THERE WAS ANOTHER PHYSICIAN THERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS. I ASKED THAT AN EMERGENCY CALL BE PLACED FOR DR. KEMP CLARK, CHIEF OF NEUROSURGERY, FOR DR. ROBERT MCCLELLAND, AND DR. CHARLES BAXTER, ASSISTANT PROFESSORS OF SURGERY. THEY RESPONDED IMMEDIATELY. I DON' KNOW HOW LONG IT TOOK THEM TO GET THERE, BUT THEY WERE PROBABLY THERE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW MINUTES. MY FIRST RECOLLECTION OF MCCLELLAND AND DR. BAXTER BEING THERE WAS WHEN I WAS DOING THE TRACHEOTOMY, THEY SUDDENLY WERE THERE ASSISTING ME. I DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY CAME IN THE ROOM, NOR DO I KNOW WHEN DR. CLARK OR THE OTHER GENTLEMEN ARRIVED, AND THERE MUST HAVE BEEN 10 OR 12 DOCTORS all told by then. Mr. SPECTER. Are there any others whom you could identify? DR. PERRY. DR. PETERS—I PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED, DR. PAUL PETERS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF UROLOGY, DR. FOUAD BASHOUR, ASSOCIATE professor of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of medicine. I MENTIONED DR. M. T. JENKINS, CHIEF OF ANESTHESIA, AND DR. GIESECKE, HIS ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF ANESTHESIOLOGY—THAT'S THE ONLY people that I saw directly. Mr. SPECTER. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don Curtis? Dr. PERRY. That's entirely possible—I don't recall. Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there? DR. PERRY. I HAVE INITIALLY HAD THE IMPRESSION THAT DR. DULANY WAS IN THE ROOM WHEN I CAME IN THERE, BUT AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HE ACTUALLY WAS JUST GOING INTO THE ROOM ACROSS THE HALL, BUT HE WAS THERE BY THE DOOR WHEN I CAME IN, BUT I HAD THE IMPRESSION HE WAS LEAVING THAT ROOM, BUT I UNDERSTAND HE WAS NOT, THAT ACTUALLY HE WAS GOING—JUST GOING IN THE ROOM ACROSS THE HALL WITH THE GOVERN although I initially thought Dr. Dulany was there. Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising in the interior portion of the President's neck? Dr. PERRY. THERE WAS CONSIDERABLE HEMATOMA IN THE RIGHT LATERAL PORTION OF THE NECK AND THE RIGHT SUPERIOR MEDIASTINUM, AS I NOTED. As for bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was SO MUCH BLOOD THAT THE TISSUES WERE DISCOLORED. I DID NOT ATTEMPT TO ASCERTAIN TRAJECTORY OR PATH OF THE BULLET AT THE TIME, BUT DIRE MYSELF TO OBTAINING AN ADEQUATE AIRWAY AND CARRIED MY EXAMINATION NO FURTHER DOWN THAN IT WAS NECESSARY TO ASSURE MYSELF THAT TH trachea was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level. Mr. SPECTER. WERE THERE SUFFICIENT FACTS AVAILABLE TO YOU FOR YOU TO REACH A CONCLUSION AS TO THE CAUSE OF THE WOUND ON THE FRON side of the President's neck? Dr. PERRY. NO, SIR, THERE WAS NOT. I COULD NOT DETERMINE WHETHER OR HOW THIS WAS INFLICTED, PER SE, SINCE IT WOULD REQUIRE TRACING THE trajectory. Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's head, specifically? Dr. PERRY. I SAW NO INJURIES OTHER THAN THE ONE WHICH I NOTED TO YOU, WHICH WAS A LARGE AVULSIVE INJURY OF THE RIGHT OCCIPITOPARIETAL area, but I did not do a minute examination of his head. Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area? Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. Mr. SPECTER. DR. PERRY, EARLIER I ASKED YOU WHETHER YOU TURNED OVER THE PRESIDENT AT ANY TIME DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR TREATMENT OR EXAMINATION OF HIM, AND YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD NOT, AND I THEN ASKED YOU WHY, AND YOU PROCEEDED TO TELL ME OF THE THINGS THA YOU DID IN SEQUENCE, AS BEING PRIORITY ITEMS TO TRY TO SAVE HIS LIFE. WHY DID YOU NOT TURN HIM OVER AT THE CONCLUSION OF THOSE OPERATIVE procedures? Dr. PERRY. WELL, ACTUALLY, I DIDN'T HAVE A SPECIFIC REASON, OTHER THAN IT HAD BEEN DETERMINED THAT HE HAD EXPIRED. THERE WAS NOTHING FURTHER THAT I COULD DO AND IT WAS NOT MY PARTICULAR PREROGATIVE TO MAKE A MINUTE EXAMINATION TO DETERMINE ANY OTHER CAUSE. I FELT that was a little bit out of my domain. Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's clothing to ascertain direction of the missile? Dr. PERRY. NO; I DID NOT. THE ONLY ASPECT OF CLOTHING THAT I KNOW ABOUT—I HAPPEN TO RECALL PUSHING UP THE BRACE WHICH HE HAD ON 11 12