The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org Title: Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15) Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy Release Date: October 19, 2013 [EBook #44003] Language: English Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V3 *** Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by www.history-matters.com. INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CREATING A COMMISSION TO ASCERTAIN, EVALUATE, AND REPORT UPON THE FACTS RELATING TO THE ASSASSINATION OF THE LATE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND THE SUBSEQUENT VIOLENT DEATH OF THE MAN CHARGED WITH ASSASSINATION AND S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, A CONCURRENT RESOLUTION CONFERRING UPON THE COMMISSION THE POWER TO ADMINISTER oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas Volume III UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON, D.C. U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, Chairman SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD MR. ALLEN W. DULLES MR. JOHN J. MCCLOY J. LEE RANKIN, General Counsel Assistant Counsel FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS JOSEPH A. BALL DAVID W. BELIN WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. MELVIN ARON EISENBERG BURT W. GRIFFIN LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. WESLEY J. LIEBELER NORMAN REDLICH W. DAVID SLAWSON ARLEN SPECTER SAMUEL A. STERN HOWARD P. WILLENSA Staff Members PHILLIP BARSON EDWARD A. CONROY JOHN HART ELY ALFRED GOLDBERG MURRAY J. LAULICHT ARTHUR MARMOR RICHARD M. MOSK JOHN J. O'BRIEN STUART POLLAK ALFREDDA SCOBEY CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report. A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice. iii Preface THE TESTIMONY OF THE FOLLOWING WITNESSES IS CONTAINED IN VOLUME III: RUTH HYDE PAINE, AN ACQUAINTANCE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND HIS WIFE; HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, WHO WAS PRESENT AT THE ASSASSINATION SCENE; BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY, TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY EMPLOYEES; MARRION L. BAKER, A DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICER WHO WAS PRESENT AT THE ASSASSINATION SCENE; MRS. ROBERT A. REID, WHO WAS IN THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING AT THE TIME OF THE ASSASSINATION; LUKE MOONEY AND EUGENE BOONE, DALLAS LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS WHO TOOK PART IN THE INVESTIGATIVE EFFORT IN THE TEXA SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE ASSASSINATION; PATROLMAN M. N. MCDONALD, WHO APPREHENDED LEE HARVEY OSWALD IN THE TEXAS THEATRE; HELEN MARKHAM, WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS, BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS, AND TED CALLAWAY, WHO WERE IN THE VICINITY OF THE TIPPIT CRIME SCENE; DRS. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO AND MALCOLM PERRY, WHO ATTENDED PRESIDENT KENNEDY AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL; ROBERT A. FRAZIER, A FIREARMS IDENTIFICATION EXPERT WITH THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION; RONALD SIMMONS, AN EXPERT WEAPONS EVALUATION WITH THE U.S. ARMY WEAPONS SYSTEMS DIVISION; CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM, A FIREARMS IDENTIFICATION EXPERT WITH TH FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION; AND JOSEPH D. NICOL, A FIREARMS IDENTIFICATION EXPERT WITH THE BUREAU OF CRIMINAL IDENTIFICATION Investigation of the Illinois Department of Public Safety. Contents Page Preface v Testimony of— Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1 Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211 Bonnie Ray Williams 161 Harold Norman 186 James Jarman, Jr 198 Roy Sansom Truly 212 Marrion L. Baker 242 Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270 Luke Mooney 281 Eugene Boone 291 M. N. McDonald 295 Helen Markham 305, 340 William W. Scoggins 322 Barbara Jeanette Davis 342 Ted Callaway 351 Charles James Carrico 357 Malcolm Perry 366 Robert A. Frazier 390 Ronald Simmons 441 Cortlandt Cunningham 451 Joseph D. Nicol 496 COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED Exhibit No.: Page 128 31 425 95 426 2 429 23 430 55 431 55 432 55 433 55 v vii 434 55 435 55 436 55 437 55 438 55 439 55 440 55 441 55 442 55 443 55 444 55 445 55 446 55 447 55 448 55 449 75 450 55 451 95 452 55 453 95 454 95 455 95 456 95 459–1 134 460 132 477 147 478 147 479 147 480 157 481 157 482 157 483 183 484 183 485 183 486 183 487 183 488 183 489 183 490 183 491 183 492 183 493 194 494 217 495 217 496 217 497 236 498 236 499 236 500 236 501 236 502 236 503 236 504 236 505 236 506 236 507 280 508 290 509 290 510 290 viii 511 290 512 290 513 290 514 290 515 290 516 294 517 294 518 302 519 302 520 304 521 314 522 314 523 314 524 314 525 317 526 317 527 321 528 324 529 339 530 339 531 339 532 339 534 339 535 341 536 341 537 357 538 357 539 357 540 392 541 394 542 397 543 399 544 399 545 399 546 401 547 401 548 403 549 403 550 404 551 404 552 404 553 404 554 404 555 405 556 408 557 415 558 415 559 419 560 420 561 423 562 424 563 425 564 427 565 427 566 430 567 432 568 432 569 435 570 436 572 437 573 439 574 441 575 441 576 444 577 444 578 444 579 445 580 445 581 445 582 445 583 445 584 445 585 450 586 450 587 453 588 453 589 454 590 454 591 454 592 459 593 462 594 465 595 466 596 467 597 467 598 467 599 467 600 467 601 467 602 474 603 474 604 474 605 474 606 488 607 489 608 499 609 500 610 500 611 501 612 502 613 505 614 506 615 506 616 507 617 507 618 507 619 508 620 508 621 508 622 508 623 508 624 509 625 512 1 Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy Thursday, March 19, 1964—Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman? Mr. MCCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation. Mr. JENNER. I WAS AT THE POINT OF DESCRIBING THE DRIVER'S LICENSE APPLICATION, BUT BEFORE I DO THAT, MRS. PAINE, MAY I HAND YOU THE document again? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. MR. JENNER. IT HAS BEEN MARKED COMMISSION EXHIBIT 426. YOU WERE MAKING A COMPARISON WITH THE BLOCK PRINTING ON THAT DOCUMENT WITH LIKE BLOCK PRINTING THAT YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY HAD BEEN WRITTEN IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK. I HAVE FORGOTTEN THE EXHIB number, but in your address book which you have before you—— Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what? Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963. Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? Mrs. PAINE. Right. Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what? Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license. Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application? Mrs. PAINE. WAS PUT IN IN PEN. I DO OBSERVE THAT THE PRINTING HERE USES A MIXTURE OF UPPER CASE AND LOWER CASE LETTERS, AS DOES THE printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case. Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is—— Mrs. PAINE. Is similar. Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN, BECAUSE OF THE POINT RAISED BY REPRESENTATIVE FORD WITH PARTICULAR REFERENCE TO THE WORD "PHOTOGRAPHER" WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS MISSPELLED, IT IS SPELLED "F-O-T-O-G-R-A-P-E-R," AND THINGS OF THAT SORT DO OCCUR AS YOU HAVE ALREADY NOTED IN MANY OF HIS writings, very bad misspellings. Mr. MCCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling. MR. JENNER. YES. THIS FORM IS AN OFFICIAL FORM PRINTED OF THE TEXAS STATE LICENSE BUREAU ENTITLED "APPLICATION FOR TEXAS DRIVER'S LICENSE," ON THE LINE PROVIDED FOR "NAME" THERE APPEARS OVER "FIRST NAME", "LEE"; OVER "MIDDLE NAME", "HARVEY"; AND "LAST NAME", "Oswald." THE SECOND SET OF SPACES, PROVISIONS FOR ADDRESS, BIRTH, AND OCCUPATION. HE GIVES AS HIS ADDRESS, 2545 WEST FIFTH STREET, IRVING, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them? Mrs. PAINE. No. Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you? Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515. MR. JENNER. PERHAPS WE WILL HAVE TO HAVE IT INTERPRETED BY SOMEONE ELSE. IT LOOKS LIKE A "4" TO ME, BUT IT MAY BE A "1." THIS BIRTHDAY, OCTOBER 18, 1939. THE AGE LAST BIRTHDAY 24, AND THEN UNDER "OCCUPATION" APPEARS THE WORD I HAVE ALREADY RELATED. SEX, MALE; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches. Mr. MCCLOY. Were you about to comment? Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race. Mr. JENNER. I ASSUME C MEANS CAUCASIAN. THERE ARE A SERIES OF QUESTIONS, PRINTED QUESTIONS ON THE FORM, AND HE ANSWERED THEM, they are from 1 to 12, as follows: 2 "Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?" Question No. 2. All these are in the negative. "Have you ever been examined for a Texas license? "Have you ever held a license in any other State? "Have you ever been denied a license? "Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled? "HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CONVICTED OF DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, FAILURE TO STOP AND RENDER AID, AGGRAVATED ASSAULT WITH A MOTOR VEHICLE negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?" All answered in the negative. "Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation? "Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident? "Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control? "Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs? "Do you have any physical or mental defects?" And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?" THE SIDE AS TO THE DRIVING RECORD, THAT IS THE REVERSE SIDE, NOTHING APPEARS THEREON, AND NOTHING IN ANY PORTION OF THE FORM WHICH deals with the record of his examination. I AM A LITTLE AT A LOSS, MR. CHAIRMAN, AS TO WHETHER I SHOULD OFFER THIS IN EVIDENCE AT THE PRESENT MOMENT, BECAUSE IT IS A DOCUMEN found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay. Mr. MCCLOY. How did we get in possession of it? Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI. THE DOCUMENT WAS TURNED OVER TO THE FBI. MAY I WITHHOLD OFFERING THE DOCUMENT IN EVIDENCE? WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS WHO will be able to qualify it. Mr. MCCLOY. Who can identify it? MR. JENNER. I AM SURE WE WILL HAVE A WITNESS. WE DO WANT THE DOCUMENT IN EVIDENCE. [COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 426 IS ALSO Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.] IDENTIFYING AS COMMISSION EXHIBIT 427 A FORM OF EMPLOYEE IDENTIFICATION QUESTIONNAIRE OF THE JAGGARS-CHILES-STOVALL CO. PLEASE examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature? Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it. Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur? Mrs. PAINE. IN NEW ORLEANS ON THE SECOND TRIP, THE END OF SEPTEMBER, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF MARINA'S COMING BACK TO HAVE THE BABY IN TEXAS WHERE THEY COULD QUALIFY AS ONE YEAR RESIDENTS, HE EQUIPPED ME TO SHOW THAT HE HAD BEEN IN TEXAS, AND IN DALLAS FOR A YEAR BY GIVING ME A RECEIPT OR PART OF A PAYCHECK, I DON'T KNOW JUST WHAT IT WAS, WITH THE JAGGARS-CHILES-STOVALL NAME O it, in October. Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose—— Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his—— Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary—— Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall. Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas? Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence. Mr. JENNER. I see. Did you take that document with you? Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it? Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him. Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital? Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child. 3 Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. WITH THE NECESSARY RESIDENTIAL PERIOD OF TIME, MARINA, IF SHE HAD QUALIFIED IN THAT RESPECT, OR DID QUALIFY THEN SHE COUL receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct? Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay. Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement? Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself? Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. Mr. JENNER. WE HAVE NOW REACHED THE SUMMER PERIOD OF 1963, AND COVERED SOME OF IT IN PART. MY RECOLLECTION OF YOUR TESTIMONY is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963. Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct? Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July. Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did. Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law. Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.? Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts. Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon? Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. Mr. JENNER. With your children? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next? Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be? Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all. Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night. Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours? MRS. PAINE. SHE IS AN OLD FRIEND OF MINE FROM COLUMBUS, OHIO, AND WENT ON THEN TO PAOLI THE NEXT DAY, AND STAYED THERE, AGAIN with the Youngs, until the early part of September. Mr. MCCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them? Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there. Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father. Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print. Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary? Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean? Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with—— Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is. Mr. JENNER. For what company, please? Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company. Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office? Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. 4 Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period? Mrs. PAINE. YES; I DID. I SAW HER BRIEFLY ON THE WAY TO NAUSHON ISLAND, AND THEN AGAIN I SAW HER ON MY WAY BACK TO THE SOUTH AND west, in Columbus, Ohio. Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip? Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her? Mrs. PAINE. SHE LIVES IN SUBURBAN WASHINGTON, AND I SAW HERE THERE AT HER HOME. I ALSO SAW MICHAEL'S BROTHER, AND HIS WIFE, WHO live in Baltimore. Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please? Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n. Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business? Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security. Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government? Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government. Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer? Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio. Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli. Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense I would mean friends? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society? MRS. PAINE. SOME WERE BOTH, BUT I MEANT IT AS PERSONAL FRIENDS. AND THEN I SAW ALSO FRIENDS, ALSO BOTH, CAPITAL F AND SMALL, IN Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans. (Discussion off the record.) Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans? Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not? Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving. MR. JENNER. AND IN THE MEANTIME YOU HAD HAD THE CORRESPONDENCE WITH MARINA THAT YOU HAD RELATED THIS MORNING, DURING THE course of your going along, had you? Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each. Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. For what purpose? Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk. Mr. JENNER. About what? Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby. Mr. JENNER. AT THAT MOMENT, AT THAT TIME, WHEN YOU WERE ABOUT TO RETURN OR ABOUT TO GO TO NEW ORLEANS, THIS CONCEPT WAS LIMITE to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child? Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis? Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again. Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September. Mr. MCCLOY. MAYBE YOU ARE GOING TO GET TO THIS. MAYBE I AM ANTICIPATING YOUR CASE, SO TO SPEAK, BUT DURING THESE VISITS THAT YOU paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina? 5 Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. Mr. MCCLOY. You did? Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me. Mr. JENNER. I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS TO PUT TO MRS. PAINE ON THAT SUBJECT, BUT THEY ARE IN THE AREA OF THE COLLATERAL THAT I SPOKE OF TH morning, so I did not go into them at the moment. Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon? Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember. Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home? Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought. Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June. Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week? Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday. Mr. JENNER. 1963? MRS. PAINE. I SPENT THE NIGHT THERE THAT NIGHT AND THE SUCCEEDING 2 NIGHTS. LEE WHO BOUGHT THE GROCERIES WHILE I WAS THERE, WAS HOST. AT ONE POINT MRS. RUTH KLOEPFER, WHO HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED, CAME AND VISITED WITH HER SISTER—EXCUSE ME, WITH HER TWO daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her. Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children? Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters. Mr. JENNER. Grown? Mrs. PAINE. IN COLLEGE, COLLEGE-AGE DAUGHTERS, AND ONE HAD BEEN STUDYING RUSSIAN, DIDN'T KNOW VERY MUCH. I WAS IMPRESSED WITH THE ROLE THAT LEE TOOK OF THE GENERAL HOST, TALKING WITH THEM, LOOKING OVER SOME SLIDES THAT ONE OF THE DAUGHTERS HAD BROUGHT OF HER recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow. Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized? MRS. PAINE. NO; THAT LEE AND MARINA RECOGNIZED OF MOSCOW, OR LEE DID, AT LEAST. AND HE WAS VERY OUTGOING AND WARM AND FRIENDLY. HE SEEMED IN GOOD SPIRITS THAT WEEKEND. I FOUND HIM—HE MADE A MUCH BETTER IMPRESSION ON ME, I WILL SAY, THAT WEEKEND THAN the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May. I COULD SEE, AND IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I FELT THAT HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT HIS WIFE'S PHYSICAL WELFARE AND ABOUT WHERE SHE COUL GO TO HAVE THE BABY, AND HE SEEMED DISTINCTLY RELIEVED TO CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF HER GOING TO DALLAS COUNTY AND GETTING CARE THROU Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal. I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way. Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days? Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days. MR. JENNER. TWO DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS; THERE WAS THEN A DISCUSSION BETWEEN YOURSELF AND MARINA, YOURSELF ON THE ONE HAND, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. MR. JENNER. NOW, DURING THE COURSE OF THE TIME YOU WERE THERE, WAS THERE ANY DISCUSSION OF THE FACT THAT LEE WAS AT THAT TIME jobless and would be seeking a position? Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work. Mr. JENNER. Yes. Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English. Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English? Mrs. PAINE. THAT IS CORRECT. I ASKED HIM IF HE THOUGHT HIS APPLICATION WAS ANY IMPEDIMENT TO HIS GETTING AND KEEPING A JOB. HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW, AND WENT ON TO SAY THAT HE HAD ALREADY LOST HIS JOB WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED FOR PASSING OUT PRO-CUBA LITERATURE HERE IN New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?" "Yes, she knew it." 6 Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation. Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him. Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you. I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction. Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it. Mr. JENNER. That was the end? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. MR. JENNER. NOW, WITH RESPECT TO THE FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE ACTIVITY, HAD YOU UP TO THIS MOMENT HEARD OF LEE HARVEY Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities. THE NAME OF THE COMMITTEE WAS NOT MENTIONED. I DID NOT KNOW THE NAME OF THE COMMITTEE UNTIL IT APPEARED IN THE NEWSPAPERS AFTER the assassination. Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say? Mrs. PAINE. HE SAID THAT HE WAS PASSING OUT PRO-CASTRO OR PRO-CUBA LITERATURE, AND THAT THERE WERE SOME ANTI-CASTRO PEOPLE WHO also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail. Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible—— Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary. Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position? Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened. Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident? Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work. MR. JENNER. HAD YOU HAD CONVERSATION WITH MARINA PRIOR TO THIS TIME IN WHICH SHE MIGHT HAVE SUGGESTED OR DID SUGGEST THAT HIS APPLICATION AND HIS HISTORY OF HAVING GONE TO RUSSIA AND THEN RETURNED TO THE UNITED STATES AS HAVING AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON HIS EFFORTS obtain employment? Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said. Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence? Mrs. PAINE. No. MR. JENNER. WAS IT EVER DISCUSSED IN YOUR PRESENCE OR RAISED IN YOUR PRESENCE BY ANYBODY OTHER THAN LEE HARVEY OSWALD OR Marina? Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. Mr. JENNER. WAS IT EVER DISCUSSED WITH YOU BY ANYBODY EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN'T PRESENT? BY "THEY" I MEAN LEE AND MARINA. YOU recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion? Mrs. PAINE. THEY CERTAINLY APPEARED TO BE IMPROVED. THE WEEKEND TIME WAS CERTAINLY MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE THAN THE WEEKEND in early May had been when I first was in New Orleans. Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it? Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days. Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening? Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening. Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know? 7 Mrs. PAINE. WHEN WE GOT BACK MARINA NOTICED THAT THE DISHES HAD BEEN CLEANED UP AND PUT AWAY. I TAKE IT BACK, THEY HAD BEEN washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing. Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina? Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I WAS IMPRESSED DURING THESE 2 DAYS WITH HIS WILLINGNESS TO HELP WITH THE PACKING. HE DID VIRTUALLY ALL THE PACKING AND ALL THE LOADIN OF THE THINGS INTO THE CAR. I SIMPLY THOUGHT THAT GENTLEMANLY OF HIM AT THE TIME. I HAVE WONDERED SINCE WHETHER HE WASN'T DOING IT preference to having me handle it. Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing? Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly. Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager? Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning. Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour? MRS. PAINE. IT COULDN'T HAVE BEEN SATURDAY NIGHT, BECAUSE I ONLY ARRIVED ON SATURDAY. MORE LIKELY IT WAS SUNDAY. IS BOURBON Street open on Sunday? Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time. Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be—— (Discussion off the record.) Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary? Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was. Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary? Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman. Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind? Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest. Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. MR. JENNER. NOW, YOU WERE THERE FOR 2 FULL DAYS AND 3 EVENINGS. WOULD YOU TELL US, CONSERVING YOUR DESCRIPTION IN YOUR WORDS, what did you do during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you. Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children. Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us? Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present? Mr. JENNER. That is right. Mrs. PAINE. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT HE WAS PRESENT MOST OF THE WEEKEND. HE WENT OUT TO BUY GROCERIES, CAME IN WITH A CHEERY CALL TO HIS TWO GIRLS, SAYING, "YABUTCHSKI," WHICH MEANS GIRLS, THE RUSSIAN WORD FOR GIRLS, AS HE CAME IN THE DOOR. IT WAS MORE LIKE HARVEY than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook. MR. JENNER. THE COMMISSION IS INTERESTED IN HIS READINGS. TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY TO RECALL, TELL US. YOU NOTICED IT NOW, OF course. Mrs. PAINE. YES. I DON'T RECALL THE TITLE OF IT. I DO RECALL THAT I LOANED HIM A POCKETBOOK AT ONE POINT. I CAN'T EVEN RECALL WHAT IT about. But I might if I saw it. Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject? Mrs. PAINE. No. Representative FORD. Was it an English book? MRS. PAINE. BUT IT WAS IN ENGLISH, UNLESS IT WAS A PARALLEL TEXT OF RUSSIAN-ENGLISH SHORT STORIES, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I CAN REMEMBER. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN REID'S TEN DAYS THAT SHOOK THE WORLD, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT I AM NOT AT ALL CERTAIN. I WOULD HAV thought he would have read that, anyway. Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days—— Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one. Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World? Mrs. PAINE. I AM VERY SHAKY IN MY MEMORY. I HAD PREPARED A COLLECTION OF BOOKS FOR THE COURSE IN RUSSIAN AT SAINT MARKS SCHOOL, 8 and they included history and literature and English. Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving? Mrs. PAINE. THAT IS RIGHT, AND THIS WAS JUST PART OF A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF THINGS OF INTEREST THAT INCLUDED SOME OF THE MORE HISTORICAL TEX from many points of view regarding Soviet life. Representative FORD. I interrupted you. Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights. Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back. Mr. JENNER. You and Lee? Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went. Mr. JENNER. He remained home? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws? Mrs. PAINE. No. Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there? Mrs. PAINE. No. Mr. JENNER. Did they come there? Mrs. PAINE. NO. I HAVE ALREADY REFERRED TO A VISIT FROM MRS. KLOEPFER, WITH HER TWO GIRLS WHICH MUST HAVE BEEN THE DAY BEFORE WE left or Monday. No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left. Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American? Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively. Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language? MRS. PAINE. OH, NO, NO. HER DAUGHTER HAS HAD 1 YEAR OF RUSSIAN IN COLLEGE, AND WAS MUCH TOO SHY TO BEGIN TO SAY ANYTHING, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke. Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning. Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer. Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language? Mrs. PAINE. ABSOLUTELY NONE. SHE WAS THE ONLY PERSON I KNEW TO TRY TO CONTACT TO ASK IF SHE KNEW OR COULD FIND ANYONE IN NEW Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone. Mr. JENNER. I see. Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina. Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew? Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't. Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there? MRS. PAINE. WELL, MUCH OF THE LAST PORTION, SOME OF THE LAST PORTION OF SUNDAY WAS SPENT PACKING UP. IT WAS A VERY WELL LOADED AUTOMOBILE BY THEN, BECAUSE I ALREADY HAD A GREAT MANY OF MY OWN, INCLUDING A BOAT ON THE TOP OF THE CAR TO WHICH WE ATTACHED THE PLAYPEN, STROLLER, AND OTHER THINGS ON TOP. I SHOULD DESCRIBE IN DETAIL THE PACKING, WHICH WAS ANOTHER THING THAT MADE ME FEEL THAT HE D care for his wife. WE LEFT ON MONDAY MORNING, YES, MONDAY MORNING EARLY, THE 23D, AND IT SEEMED TO ME HE WAS VERY SORRY TO SEE HER GO. THEY KISSED GOODBYE AND WE GOT IN THE CAR AND I STARTED DOWN INTENDING REALLY TO GO NO FARTHER THAN THE FIRST GAS STATION BECAUSE I HAD A SO REAR TIRE AND I WASN'T GOING TO HAVE A FLAT WITH THIS GREAT PILE OF GOODS ON TOP OF NOT ONLY MY CAR BUT MY SPARE, SO I WENT DOWN TO THE FIR gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire. LEE HAVING WATCHED US, WALKED DOWN TO THE GAS STATION AND TALKED AND VISITED WHILE I ARRANGED TO HAVE THE TIRE CHANGED, BOUGHT A NEW ONE AND HAD IT CHANGED. I FELT HE WISHED OR THOUGHT HE SHOULD BE OFFERING SOMETHING TOWARD THE COST OF THE TIRE. HE SAID, "THAT SUR IS GOING TO COST A LOT, ISN'T IT?" AND I SAID, "YES; BUT CAR OWNERS HAVE TO EXPECT THAT." THIS IS AS CLOSE AS HE CAME TO OFFERING FINANCIAL help. But it was at least a gesture. Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you? Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help. Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald? Mrs. PAINE. No. 9 Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.? Mrs. PAINE. AND HE DID NOT AT THIS TIME GIVE HER, SO FAR AS I KNOW, ANY SMALL CHANGE OR PETTY CASH TO TAKE WITH HER, WHEREAS WHEN HE LEFT HER IN LATE APRIL TO GO TO MY HOUSE, SHE TO GO TO MY HOUSE, AND HE TO GO TO NEW ORLEANS, HE LEFT $10 OR SO WITH HER. SHE SPENT that on incidentals. Mr. JENNER. MRS. PAINE, DID HE EVER, DURING ALL OF THE PERIOD OF YOUR ACQUAINTANCE WITH THE OSWALDS, EVER OFFER ANY REIMBURSEMENT financially or anything at all to you? Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me. Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject? MRS. PAINE. NO. AS CLOSE AS WE CAME TO SUCH DISCUSSION WAS SAYING THAT WHEN THEY HAD ENOUGH MONEY AND PERHAPS AFTER CHRISTMAS THEY WOULD GET AN APARTMENT AGAIN, AND I JUDGED, FELT THAT HE WAS SAVING MONEY TOWARDS RENTING A FURNISHED APARTMENT FOR H family. Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money? Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina. Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions? Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April. Mr. JENNER. Yes. Mrs. PAINE. HE DID GIVE HER, I THINK, $10, JUST PRIOR, OR SOME TIME CLOSE TO THE TIME OF THE ASSASSINATION, BECAUSE SHE PLANNED TO buy some shoes. Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children? MRS. PAINE. FOR HERSELF, FLATS. BUT WHEN HE GAVE THAT TO HER I AM NOT CERTAIN. I DO KNOW THAT WE DEFINITELY PLANNED TO GO OUT O Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go. Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that? Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes. Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car? Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention—didn't it? Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all. Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more? Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever. Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. MRS. PAINE. HE TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO TRY TO LOOK FOR WORK IN HOUSTON, AND POSSIBLY IN PHILADELPHIA; THESE WERE THE TWO names he mentioned. Mr. JENNER. WE ARE INTERESTED IN THAT, IN THIS PARTICULAR PHASE OF THE INVESTIGATION. DID HE MAKE THAT STATEMENT IN YOUR PRESENCE, I the presence of Marina? Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. Mr. JENNER. I TAKE IT THAT THIS WAS ELICITED BY A DISCUSSION OF THE SUBJECT OF HIS GOING TO LOOK FOR WORK AFTER YOU GIRLS HAD LEFT, IS TH correct? Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left? Mr. JENNER. Yes. Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject? Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia. Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns? Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston. Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit? Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends. MR. JENNER. WAS THERE ANY INFERENCE OR DID YOU INFER FROM ANYTHING HE SAID OR WHICH MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAID IN YOUR PRESENCE THAT after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look—— Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left. Mr. JENNER. Promptly? Mrs. PAINE. Yes. 10