The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org Title: Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15) Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy Release Date: October 21, 2013 [EBook #44011] Language: English Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V11 *** Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by www.history-matters.com. INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CREATING A COMMISSION TO ASCERTAIN, EVALUATE, AND REPORT UPON THE FACTS RELATING TO THE ASSASSINATION OF THE LATE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND THE SUBSEQUENT VIOLENT DEATH OF THE MAN CHARGED WITH ASSASSINATION AND S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, A CONCURRENT RESOLUTION CONFERRING UPON THE COMMISSION THE POWER TO ADMINISTER oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas Volume XI UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON, D.C. U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, Chairman SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD MR. ALLEN W. DULLES MR. JOHN J. MCCLOY J. LEE RANKIN, General Counsel Assistant Counsel FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS JOSEPH A. BALL DAVID W. BELIN WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. MELVIN ARON EISENBERG BURT W. GRIFFIN LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. WESLEY J. LIEBELER NORMAN REDLICH W. DAVID SLAWSON ARLEN SPECTER SAMUEL A. STERN HOWARD P. WILLENSA Staff Members PHILLIP BARSON EDWARD A. CONROY JOHN HART ELY ALFRED GOLDBERG MURRAY J. LAULICHT ARTHUR MARMOR RICHARD M. MOSK JOHN J. O'BRIEN STUART POLLAK ALFREDDA SCOBEY CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report. AMr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice. iii Preface THE TESTIMONY OF THE FOLLOWING WITNESSES IS CONTAINED IN VOLUME XI: JOHN EDWARD PIC, LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S HALFBROTHER; EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR., JOHN EDWARD PIC'S FATHER; KERRY WENDELL THORNLEY, A MARINE CORPS ACQUAINTANCE OF OSWALD; GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR., MRS. GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR., AND BILLY JOE LORD, WHO WERE ON THE BOAT OSWALD TOOK WHEN HE LEFT THE UNITED STATES FOR RUSSIA; ALEXANDER KLEINLERER, MRS. DONALD GIBSON, RUTH HYDE PAINE, MICHAEL RALPH PAINE, AND GARY TAYLOR, WHO BECAME ACQUAINTED WIT OSWALD AND HIS WIFE AFTER THEIR RETURN TO TEXAS IN 1962; M. WALDO GEORGE, THE OSWALD'S LANDLORD AT NEELY STREET IN DALLAS; WIL KIRK STUCKEY, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY RELATING TO OSWALD'S POLITICAL VIEWS; HORACE ELROY TWIFORD AND ESTELLE TWIFORD, WHO GAVE TESTIMON RELATING TO THE DATE AND ROUTE OF OSWALD'S TRIP TO MEXICO IN 1963; VIRGINIA H. JAMES, JAMES D. CROWLEY, JAMES L. RITCHIE, AND CARROL HAMILTON SEELEY, JR., OF THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT; LOUIS FELDSOTT, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY RELATING TO THE PURCHASE OF THE C2766 RIFLE PHILIP LUX AND ALBERT C. YEARGAN, JR., EMPLOYEES OF SPORTING-GOODS STORES IN DALLAS; HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, WHO WAS PRESENT AT THE ASSASSINATION SCENE; LOUIS WEINSTOCK, AN OFFICIAL OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY, VINCENT T. LEE, AN OFFICIAL OF THE FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE, AND FARRELL DOBBS, AN OFFICIAL OF THE SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING CONTACTS OSWALD HAD WITH TH GROUPS; VIRGINIA GRAY, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY CONCERNING A LETTER WRITTEN BY OSWALD; ALBERT F. STAPLES, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY CONCERNING RECORDS RELATING TO MARINA OSWALD; KATHERINE MALLORY, MONICA KRAMER, AND RITA NAMAN, WHO ENCOUNTERED OSWALD WHILE TOURI RUSSIA IN 1961; JOHN BRYAN MCFARLAND, MERYL MCFARLAND, AND PAMELA MUMFORD, WHO WERE ON THE BUS OSWALD TOOK TO MEXICO IN THE FALL OF 1963; DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER, HUNTER SCHMIDT, JR., CHARLES W. GREENER, GERTRUDE HUNTER, EDITH WHITWORTH, JAMES LEHRER, A MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY CONCERNING AN ALLEGATION THAT OSWALD HAD TAKEN A RIFLE TO A GUN-REPAIR SHOP IN DALLA EUGENE D. ANDERSON AND JAMES A. ZAHM, OF THE U.S. MARINE CORPS, EXPERTS ON THE SUBJECT OF MARKSMANSHIP; C. A. HAMBLEN, ROBERT GENE FENLEY, AND AUBREY LEE LEWIS, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY CONCERNING AN ALLEGATION THAT OSWALD WAS SENDING AND RECEIVING TELEGRAMS THROUGH A DALLAS WESTERN UNION OFFICE; DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS, JR., EVARISTO RODRIGUEZ, OREST PENA, RUPERTO PENA, AND SYLVIA ODIO, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING CONTACTS THEY BELIEVED THEY HAD WITH OSWALD IN NEW ORLEANS AND DALLAS UNDER VARIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES; EDWIN A. WALKER, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING AN ATTEMPT ON HIS LIFE ON APRIL 10, 1963, AND HIS ATTORNEY, CLYDE J. WATTS; IVAN D. LEE, AN AGENT O THE FBI, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY REGARDING PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH HE TOOK OF GENERAL WALKER'S RESIDENCE; BERNARD WEISSMAN, WHO PAID FOR AN ADVERTISEMENT CONCERNING PRESIDENT KENNEDY WHICH APPEARED IN A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON NOVEMBER 22, 1963; WARREN ALLEN REYNOLDS, WHO WAS PRESENT IN THE VICINITY OF THE TIPPIT CRIME SCENE; PRISCILLA MARY POST JOHNSON, WHO INTERVIEWED OSWALD IN MOSCOW; ERIC ROGERS, WHO LIVED IN THE SAME BUILDING AS OSWALD AND HIS WIFE IN NEW ORLEANS IN 1963; BARDWELL D. ODUM, JAMES R. MALLEY, AND RICHARD HELMS, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING A PHOTOGRAPH WHICH WAS SHOWN TO MARGUERITE OSWALD FOR PURPOSES OF IDENTIFICATION; PETER MEGARGEE BROWN, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING RECORDS RELATING TO OSWALD WHEN HE LIVED IN NEW YORK DURING HIS YOUTH; FRANCIS J. MARTELL OF THE NEW ORLEANS POLICE DEPARTMENT, WHO INTERROGATED OSWALD IN AUGUST 1963; JOHN CORPORON, AN OFFICIAL OF A NEW ORLEANS BROADCASTING STATION; MRS. J. V. ALLEN, WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING THE SCHOOLING OF OSWALD'S BROTHERS; LILLIAN MURRET, OSWALD'S AUNT; A JOHN W. BURCHAM, EMMETT CHARLES BARBE, JR., HILDA L. SMITH, J. RACHAL, BOBB HUNLEY, ROBERT J. CREEL, HELEN P. CUNNINGHAM, Theodore Frank Gangl, Gene Graves, and Robert L. Adams, who testified concerning Oswald's employment history. Contents Page Preface v Testimony of— John Edward Pic 1 Edward John Pic, Jr 82 Kerry Wendell Thornley 82 George B. Church, Jr 115 Mrs. George B. Church, Jr 116 Billy Joe Lord 117 Alexander Kleinlerer 118 Mrs. Donald Gibson 123 Ruth Hyde Paine 153, 389 M. Waldo George 155 William Kirk Stuckey 156 Horace Elroy Twiford 179 Estelle Twiford 179 Virginia H. James 180 James L. Ritchie 191 Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr 193 v vii Louis Feldsott 205 J. Philip Lux 206 Howard Leslie Brennan 206 Albert C. Yeargan, Jr 207 Louis Weinstock 207 Vincent T. Lee 208 Farrell Dobbs 208 Virginia Gray 209 Albert F. Staples 210 Katherine Mallory 210 Monica Kramer 212 Rita Naman 213 John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland 214 Pamela Mumford 215 Dial Duwayne Ryder 224 Hunter Schmidt, Jr 240 Charles W. Greener 245 Gertrude Hunter 253 Edith Whitworth 262 Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter 275 Eugene D. Anderson 301 James A. Zahm 306 C. A. Hamblen 311 Robert Gene Fenley 314 Aubrey Lee Lewis 318 Dean Adams Andrews, Jr 325 Evaristo Rodriguez 339 Orest Pena 346 Ruperto Pena 364 Sylvia Odio 367 Michael Ralph Paine 398 Edwin A. Walker and Clyde J. Watts 404 Bernard Weissman 428 Warren Allen Reynolds 434 Priscilla Mary Post Johnson 442 Eric Rogers 460 James Lehrer 464 Bardwell D. Odum 468 James R. Malley 468 Richard Helms 469 Peter Megargee Brown 470 Gary Taylor 470 Francis L. Martello 471 John Corporon 471 Mrs. J. V. Allen 472 Lillian Murret 472 John W. Burcham 473 Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr 473 Hilda L. Smith 474 J. Rachal 474 Bobb Hunley 476 Robert J. Creel 477 Helen P. Cunningham 477 Theodore Frank Gangl 478 Gene Graves 479 Robert L. Adams 480 Ivan D. Lee 481 James D. Crowley 482 viii EXHIBITS INTRODUCED Page Allen Exhibit No.: 1 472 2 472 3 472 4 472 5 472 6 472 7 472 8 472 9 472 10 472 11 472 12 472 13 472 14 472 15 472 Anderson Exhibit No. 1 303 Brown Exhibit No. 1 470 Burcham Exhibit No.: 1 473 2 473 3 473 Creel Exhibit No.: 1 477 2 477 3 477 4 477 5 477 6 477 7 477 8 477 Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 477 Gangl Exhibit No. 1 479 Graves Exhibit No. 1 479 Gray Exhibit No. 1 210 Greener Exhibit No.: 1 246 2 247 3 251 4 251 Hunley Exhibit No.: 1 476 2 476 3 476 4 476 5 476 6 476 7 476 James Exhibit No.: 1 181 2 186 3 187 3-A 187 4 188 5 188 6 189 ix 7 189 8 189 9 189 10 190 11 190 Johnson Exhibit No.: 1 442 2 442 3 443 4 443 5 443 6 443 Kramer Exhibit No.: 1 212 2 213 Lee Exhibit: A 482 B 482 Lewis Exhibit No. 1 323 Murret Exhibit No. 1 472 Odio Exhibit No. 1 373 Odum Exhibit No. 1 468 Pena Exhibit No. 1 359 Pic Exhibit No.: 1 5 2 13 2-A 15 3 14 4 15 5 15 6 66 6-A 66 7 66 7-A 66 8 66 8-A 66 9 66 9-A 66 10 66 10-A 66 10-B 66 11 66 11-A 66 12 66 12-A 66 13 66 13-A 66 14 66 15 66 16 66 16-A 66 17 66 17-A 66 18 66 18-A 66 19 66 19-A 66 20 66 20-A 66 20-B 66 21 67 21-A 67 22 67 23 67 23-A 67 24 67 24-A 67 25 67 25-A 67 26 67 26-A 67 27 69 27-A 69 27-B 69 28-A 69 28-B 69 29-A 69 29-B 69 29-C 69 30-A 69 30-B 69 31-A 69 31-B 69 32-A 69 32-B 70 33-A 70 33-B 70 34 70 35-A 70 35-B 70 36-A 70 36-B 70 37-A 71 37-B 71 38-A 71 38-B 71 39-A 71 39-B 71 40-A 71 40-B 71 41-A 71 41-B 71 42-A 71 42-B 71 43-A 71 43-B 71 44-A 71 44-B 71 45-A 71 45-B 71 46-A 71 46-B 71 47-A 71 47-B 71 48 35 49 35 50 29 x 51 29 52 28 53 28 54 30 55 30 56 36 57 36 58 36 59 35 60 60 Rachal Exhibit No.: 1 475 2 476 3 476 Rogers Exhibit No. 1 463 Seeley Exhibit No.: 1 195 2 196 3 198 4 199 5 199 6 200 7 201 Smith Exhibit No. 1 474 Staples Exhibit No. 1 210 Stuckey Exhibit No.: 1 161 2 163 3 169 4 177 Thornley Exhibit No.: 1 112 2 113 3 114 Twiford Exhibit No. 1 179 Walker Exhibit No.: 1 408 2 409 3 411 4 411 Weinstock Exhibit No. 1 207 Weissman Exhibit No. 1 429 Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC THE TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC WAS TAKEN AT 10:25 A.M., ON MAY 15, 1964, AT 200 MARYLAND AVENUE NE., WASHINGTON, D.C., by Messrs. John Hart Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. 1 MR. JENNER. SERGEANT PIC, DO YOU SWEAR IN YOUR TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT TO GIVE THAT YOU WILL TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, nothing but the truth? Mr. PIC. Yes; I do. Mr. JENNER. State your full name, please. Mr. PIC. Staff Sergeant John Edward Pic, sir, U.S. Air Force. Mr. JENNER. And that Pic is spelled P-i-c-? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Give me your home address. Mr. PIC. 7306 Westville, San Antonio, Tex. Mr. JENNER. You are a married man? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born. Mr. PIC. MY WIFE'S MAIDEN NAME IS MARGARET DOROTHY FUHRMAN. MY ELDEST IS JOHN EDWARD PIC, JR., 14 MAY, 1952. MY DAUGHTER, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960. Mr. JENNER. Your wife Margaret is—she was born where? Mr. PIC. New York City, sir. Mr. JENNER. Her parents are native Americans as well as she? Mr. PIC. No, sir; they are not. Mr. JENNER. What do you know of them? Mr. PIC. HER FATHER DIED; I NEVER MET THE MAN WHILE WE WERE GOING TOGETHER. HER MOTHER AND FATHER WERE SEPARATED. HER MOTHER was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir. Mr. JENNER. What do you understand as to when they came to this country? Mr. PIC. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten. Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure. Mr. JENNER. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Where? Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, New York City. Mr. JENNER. And you were at that time in the service? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Rockaway. Mr. JENNER. How old is Mrs. Pic? Mr. PIC. Thirty, sir. She turned 30 the 21st of December. Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. She was born December 21, 1933? Mr. PIC. IT MAY BE 22, SIR; I NEVER REMEMBER. I AM GIVING SWORN TESTIMONY, I DON'T WANT TO LIE ABOUT MY WIFE'S BIRTHDAY; IT IS EITHER the 21st or 22d, I am pretty sure it is the 21st. Mr. JENNER. You are stationed where at present? Mr. PIC. I am attached to Wilford Hall, USAF Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Tex. Mr. JENNER. Do you—what is your particular assignment? Mr. PIC. I AM NCOIC, SPECIAL PROCEDURES BRANCH, DEPARTMENT OF PATHOLOGY, WILFORD HALL HOSPITAL. I HAVE HAD THIS JOB SINCE THE 10th of February this year, and my other ones, I had another job when I talked to the Secret Service if you would be interested in that. Mr. JENNER. How long have you been at Lackland? Mr. PIC. I have been there since August 1962, sir. Mr. JENNER. My information is you were born in New Orleans on January 17, 1932? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Mr. JENNER. You entered the Coast Guard. 2 Mr. PIC. It was either 25 or 26 January 1950, sir. Mr. JENNER. And you were then 18 years of age? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. And that was where? Mr. PIC. I processed my enlistment in Fort Worth. I was sworn into the Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex. Mr. JENNER. I THINK IT MIGHT BE WELL IF WE HAD YOUR SERVICE HISTORY ALL IN ONE SPOT SO YOU GO AHEAD AND FOR MY BENEFIT SPEAK A LITTLE more slowly so I can absorb it. MR. PIC. ALL RIGHT, SIR. APPROXIMATELY 26 JANUARY 1950, ENLISTED IN COAST GUARD IN DALLAS, TEX.; FROM JANUARY 1950 UNTIL MAY 1950, I WAS IN BOOT CAMP AT U.S. COAST GUARD TRAINING STATION, CAPE MAY, N.J. IN MAY 1950 UNTIL JANUARY 1951, I WAS ATTACHED TO U.S. COAST GUARD CUTTER Rockaway. JANUARY 1951 UNTIL APPROXIMATELY JUNE 1951 WAS STATIONED AT U.S. COAST GUARD TRAINING STATION, GROTON, CONN. FROM JUNE 1951 UNTIL JANUARY 1952, I WAS STATIONED AT U.S. COAST GUARD BASE, ST. GEORGE, STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. FROM JANUARY 1952 UNTIL APRIL 1952, I WAS STATIONED AT U.S. NAVAL TRAINING STATION, BAINBRIDGE, MD. APRIL 1952 UNTIL FEBRUARY 1953, I WA STATIONED AT U.S. COAST GUARD PSU, WHICH IS PORT SECURITY UNIT, ELLIS ISLAND, N.Y. FEBRUARY 1953 UNTIL SEPTEMBER 1953, I WA stationed aboard the U.S. Coast Guard cutter Firebush. Mr. JENNER. Were you at sea? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was classified as sea duty. It was really a buoy tender. Mr. JENNER. In what area? Mr. PIC. New York area, sir. Mr. JENNER. Were you on ship all the time during that period? Mr. PIC. We would go out a day, come back the next; back and forth. Mr. JENNER. What I am really getting at is when you were ashore were you home? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I went home the minute I got off the ship. Mr. JENNER. OK. Mr. PIC. September 1953 until April 1954—these months I am pretty sure, I am certain are OK. Mr. JENNER. That is all right. Mr. PIC. I WAS STATIONED AT U.S. NAVAL HOSPITAL, PORTSMOUTH, VA. MY ADDRESS WHEN I LIVED THERE WAS, FOR 3 MONTHS WE LIVED WITH my sister-in-law in Norfolk. Mr. JENNER. Name her, please. Mr. PIC. Mrs. Emma Parrish, I believe. Mr. JENNER. That was your wife's sister? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Then in January of 1954 we moved over to Portsmouth, Va., 1234 Holliday Street. APRIL 1954 FOR ABOUT 2, 3 WEEKS, I WAS THEN STATIONED AGAIN AT ST. GEORGE, STATEN ISLAND, AND I RECEIVED ORDERS THROUGH THE COAST Guard cutter Halfmoon, and I was on the Coast Guard cutter Halfmoon until January 1956. Mr. JENNER. And at sea or—— Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was weather patrol duty. Mr. JENNER. You did come ashore when you got home? Mr. PIC. WE PULLED WEATHER PATROL, SIR. WE WOULD BE OUT 5 OR 6 WEEKS AND WE WOULD BE IN 5 OR 6 WEEKS; AND THIS I TOLERATED FOR 21 MONTHS. ON 1 FEBRUARY 1956, I JOINED THE AIR FORCE. I JOINED THE AIR FORCE ON STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. MY ADDRESS AT THIS TIME WAS 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. Mr. JENNER. In a few words, what was that transition. Had you appeared—— Mr. PIC. MY ENLISTMENT FROM THE COAST GUARD WAS COMPLETE, SIR, AND I DECIDED THAT STAYING IN THE COAST GUARD FOR 20 OR SOME ODD YEARS I WOULDN'T SEE MUCH OF MY FAMILY AND I UNDERSTOOD THE AIR FORCE WAS A FAMILY MAN'S OUTFIT AND I FIGURED THAT WAS FOR ME. SO THE DAY AFTER I GOT OUT OF THE COAST GUARD I JOINED THE AIR FORCE—NO BROKEN SERVICE. I WAS STATIONED AT MITCHEL AIR FORCE BASE, HEMPSTEAD, LONG ISLAND, N.Y., UNTIL OCTOBER, END OF SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER 1958, AND RECEIVED ORDERS TO JAPAN, APO 323, TACHIKAWA, Japan. Mr. JENNER. What year were you in? Mr. PIC. 1958 when I received my orders. Mr. JENNER. AT THIS TIME WHEN YOU WERE ASSIGNED TO JAPAN, THAT WAS THE PERIOD OF TIME ALSO WHEN YOUR BROTHER LEE OSWALD, THEN in the Marines, was also stationed in Japan? Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of that fact when you were stationed in Japan? 3 Mr. PIC. WHEN I RECEIVED MY ORDERS, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION HE WAS IN KOREA, SIR. I KNEW HE WAS OVERSEAS IN THE JAPANESE- Korean area. Mr. JENNER. Had you had any communication from him prior to your going to Japan? Mr. PIC. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, SIR, SOMETIME AFTER HE ENTERED THE SERVICE AND WENT OVERSEAS I RECEIVED A LETTER FROM HIM, very short note. He wrote a very short note. I no longer have this. Mr. JENNER. He entered the service in October of 1956? Mr. PIC. I WAS IN THE AIR FORCE AT MITCHEL AIR FORCE BASE AT THE TIME. DO YOU WANT ME TO FINISH WITH MY MILITARY DATES, AND THEN can go back? Mr. JENNER. Yes. Mr. PIC. NOVEMBER 1958, 10 NOVEMBER 1958 UNTIL 17 JULY, 1962, I WAS STATIONED IN JAPAN. IN AUGUST 1962 UNTIL THE PRESENT DATE assigned to Lackland, Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base. NOW, IN THE TIME PERIOD FROM—MY MOTHER PAID US A CHRISTMAS VISIT, SIR, DURING THE CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS OF 1957, I BELIEVE, AFTER LEE had joined the Marine Corps. Mr. JENNER. Yes; that would be a little over a year, that would be a year and 2 months after he had joined the Marine Corps. Mr. PIC. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Where were you at that time? Mr. PIC. I WAS STATIONED AT MITCHEL AIR FORCE BASE, SIR, AND I BELIEVE MY ADDRESS WAS 105 AVENUE C, EAST MEADOW, LONG ISLAND. I was living right next to the Air Force base. Mr. JENNER. Had you known prior to that time, which presumably you did, that Lee had entered the service? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I knew this. Mr. JENNER. Had enlisted in the Marines? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. And how had you learned that, through your mother? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; through my mother. Mr. JENNER. Had you learned that at or about the time he actually enlisted? What were the circumstances? Mr. PIC. Concerning what, sir? Mr. JENNER. His enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. He enlisted in October 1956. He was then 17 years old. Mr. PIC. MY MOTHER TOLD ME SOME WAY OR ANOTHER, I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. THIS IS HOW I LEARNED ABOUT IT, EITHER BY PHONE CALL OR BY letter or some way. Of course, I knew he would do it as soon as he reached the age. Mr. JENNER. ALL RIGHT. WHY DID YOU KNOW HE WOULD DO IT AND TELL US THE CIRCUMSTANCES UPON WHICH YOU, THE FACTS UPON WHICH YOU base that observation? Mr. PIC. He did it for the same reasons that I did it and Robert did it, I assume, to get from out and under. Mr. JENNER. Out and under what? Mr. PIC. The yoke of oppression from my mother. Mr. JENNER. Had that been a matter of discussion between you and for example, between you and your brother Robert? Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was just something we understood about and never discussed. Mr. JENNER. And that would include Lee as well as your brother Robert; that is, you were all aware of it? Mr. PIC. I KNOW THIS INCLUDES MY BROTHER ROBERT. OF COURSE, WHEN I WAS 18 YEARS OLD I DIDN'T DISCUSS THINGS LIKE THIS WITH LEE, WHO was much younger. Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. You made a general statement—— Mr. PIC. OK. Mr. JENNER. WHICH LAWYERS WOULD CALL A MIXED MATTER OF CONCLUSION AND OF FACT AND WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN general. Mr. PIC. OK. Mr. JENNER. They would probably go back for a good many years and it involves a personality. MR. PIC. WELL, WHY DON'T I START WITH THE DEATH OF LEE'S FATHER, AND I THINK REALLY STARTING THERE I CAN TELL YOU MORE OF MY feelings and so forth. I can make one statement but to bring out the circumstances I think I should go back a little further. Mr. JENNER. All right. I will come back to this eventually. I will start you off this way. You are the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. And you are also the brother of Robert? 4 Mr. PIC. Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr. Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee Edward Oswald? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. I NOTICE IN YOUR STATEMENTS THAT YOU REFER TO HIM AS ROBERT LEE EDWARD OSWALD. THERE ARE SOME REFERENCES BY OTHERS to Robert E. Lee Oswald. Mr. PIC. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Your stepfather is generally referred to in the record and by witnesses as Lee Oswald. What was his full name? Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge, sir, it was Robert Lee Edward Oswald. Mr. JENNER. In any event your brother Robert was a junior. Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Your brother Robert was born April 7, 1934; is that to the best of your recollection? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection. Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee Harvey Oswald, October 18, 1939? Mr. PIC. That is correct, air. Mr. JENNER. Your father's name? Mr. PIC. Edward John Pic, sir. Mr. JENNER. You are named after him except—— Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. The two surnames were reversed? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir. John Pic, Jr., in fact his name is—— Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic, Jr. Mr. PIC. Right. Mr. JENNER. And your mother was Marguerite Claverie Oswald? Mr. PIC. Claverie, Marguerite Frances. Mr. JENNER. And your mother and father were married what date? Mr. PIC. Eighth day of August 1929, sir. Mr. JENNER. And you are now reading from what? Mr. PIC. The marriage certificate of Edward John Pic, Jr., and Mrs. Marguerite Frances Claverie. Mr. JENNER. That is a marriage certificate that you, that is among your personal papers? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. I am going to put an exhibit number on it. We will take a photograph of it and return the original to you. Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that as John Pic Exhibit No. 1. (John Pic Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) Mr. JENNER. I OFFER IN EVIDENCE AS JOHN PIC EXHIBIT NO. 1, A MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE CERTIFIED AND DATED AUGUST 8, 1929, REFLECTING THE MARRIAGE OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR. AND MISS MARGUERITE FRANCES CLAVERIE ON THE 1ST DAY OF AUGUST 1929, IN HARRISON COUNTY, MISS. THE marriage certificate does not show the town. Sergeant, do you have any recollection of your father? Mr. PIC. My own father? Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. Mr. PIC. No, sir, I don't. Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of ever having seen your father? Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. Mr. JENNER. YOU WERE TOO YOUNG AT THE TIME BUT YOU EVENTUALLY BECAME AWARE OF THE FACT THAT YOUR MOTHER, MARGUERITE, AND YOU father, Edward, were divorced not long after your birth? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware also of the fact that at the time of your birth that your father and mother were separated? Mr. PIC. No, sir. 5 Mr. JENNER. This is the first information, I take it, then, in the utterance I have just made? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. That you have become aware that your mother and your father were separated at the time of your birth? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. You did learn about that? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. From your mother? Mr. PIC. From Life magazine, sir. Mr. JENNER. I see. Well, that is what I was really getting at. Mr. PIC. O.K. Mr. JENNER. IT WAS ONLY IN THE LAST 6 OR 8 MONTHS THAT YOU LEARNED THAT AT THE TIME OF YOUR BIRTH YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR FATHER W separated? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. I had always been told that they were divorced because he didn't want children. I didn't know anything else but that. I didn't know the time periods or anything else, sir. MR. JENNER. YOUR STEPFATHER, WHEN YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR STEPFATHER—I WILL CALL HIM LEE OSWALD BECAUSE ALL THE WITNESSES HAVE referred to him as Lee Oswald, is that what he was called, do you have any recollection of it? Mr. PIC. I remember him being referred to as Mr. Oswald, sir. Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. MR. JENNER. DID YOU HAVE A RECOLLECTION AT THE TIME, AT LEAST—THAT IS AN INELEGANT QUESTION. DO YOU RECALL YOUR MOTHER TH marrying Lee Oswald or Mr. Oswald? Mr. PIC. I knew they were married, I don't recall the marriage ceremony. Mr. JENNER. What do you recall about him, sergeant? Mr. PIC. I RECALL HE WAS AN INSURANCE SALESMAN, SIR, FOR THE METROPOLITAN LIFE INSURANCE CO. HE USED TO TAKE ME ON HIS ROUNDS FOR collections sometimes. He was very strict with us. We got whippings when we were bad. Mr. JENNER. You don't mean to claim that any of them was undeserved? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Not in the least. Mr. JENNER. I should say this to you, I think. The witnesses all, everybody spoke well of your stepfather. Mr. PIC. That is how I remember him, sir. Mr. JENNER. You were born in New Orleans? Mr. PIC. I was? Mr. JENNER. I am really putting a question mark at the end. Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was born at New Orleans. Mr. JENNER. And the family lived in New Orleans? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Were you ever informed by anybody as to the business of your father, not your stepfather but your—— Mr. PIC. My real father? Mr. JENNER. Yes; or occupation? Mr. PIC. FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD HE WAS A STEVEDORE AND HAD ONCE BEEN A PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER. THIS IS ALL I REMEMBER EVER hearing about him. Mr. JENNER. And this was information that came from primarily your mother? Mr. PIC. From my mother; yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. AS A BOY AS YOU GREW UP IN NEW ORLEANS WERE YOU ADVISED WHETHER YOUR FATHER WAS ALIVE, WHETHER HE WAS IN NEW Orleans or where he was or anything about him in that connection? Mr. PIC. Being the nosy child I was, every once in a while I would look him up in the phone book so I knew he existed. Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiries to find out what his business was or occupation? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any attempt to go to where he might be working or living to see what he looked like? Mr. PIC. I thought of it several times but I never made an attempt. 6 Mr. JENNER. Were you influenced in this in any respect by your mother? Mr. PIC. No, sir. I do remember on several occasions when we would visit the Lillian Murrets the name would come up that he had visited them, they would see him now and then and, of course, every time this cropped up it made me more inquisitive. Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Lillian Murret, that is your aunt, your mother's sister? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. And her husband is Charles "Dutz" Murret? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. IN THOSE EARLY YEARS, DID YOUR FAMILY RESIDE SOMEWHERE NEAR THE MURRETS? I AM GOING TO GET INTO ALL THOSE ADDRESSES IF I can, but I am thinking of the overall relationship geographically. Mr. PIC. As I recollect, the house was where Mr. Oswald died, all I know is that it was on the corner of Alvez and Galvez. Mr. JENNER. 2109 Alvar? Mr. PIC. There you go. I think the street that ran next to it was Galvez. Mr. JENNER. You are correct. Mr. PIC. This is the first real—I remember a first real house prior to this, where it was, sir, I don't know. I was about 5 at the time. Mr. JENNER. But the first one you remember is the house on the corner that you have mentioned? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Do any of these addresses refresh your recollection? 2205 Alvar? Mr. PIC. It may be the address of the house on Alvez and Galvez, I don't know. Mr. JENNER. No? Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. 2123 Alvar? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. 1661 Paul Morphy? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. 2132 Gallier? Mr. PIC. The name, the streets sound—I may have heard it before. Mr. JENNER. 1917 Gallier? Mr. PIC. Only the street sounds familiar. Mr. JENNER. 805 Greenwood? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. 220 North—my pronunciation will be bad—Telemachus. Mr. PIC. No. Mr. JENNER. 123 South Cortez? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. YOU HAD TO GET AWAY YESTERDAY BEFORE A LETTER ARRIVED WHICH IS AT YOUR BASE NOW, FROM MR. RANKIN, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION, CONFIRMING ARRANGEMENTS FOR YOU TO APPEAR AND HAVE YOUR DEPOSITION TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMISSION, AND ENCLOSING WITH THAT LETTER COPIES OF THE LEGISLATION BEING SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 137 AUTHORIZING THE CREATION OF THE COMMISSION, AND A COPY PRESIDENT JOHNSON'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS BRINGING THE COMMISSION INTO EXISTENCE NO. 11130, AND A COPY OF THE RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE Commission itself for the taking of depositions. WHEN YOU RETURN TO LACKLAND BASE YOU WILL FIND THAT LETTER PROBABLY IN THE POSSESSION OF YOUR COMMANDING OFFICER, AND HE WIL deliver it to you. THE COMMISSION WAS AUTHORIZED BY THE RESOLUTION I HAVE MENTIONED AND BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE BY THE PRESIDENT TO INVESTIGATE THE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES INVOLVED IN AND SURROUNDING THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY ON NOVEMBER 22, 1963, AND WE HAVE UNDERSTOOD FROM WITNESSES AND OTHER INFORMATION WE HAVE, THAT YOU HAD AND STILL HAVE INFORMATION BEARING UPON THE FACTS AND circumstances relative to that assassination, and it is this line of questioning that is directed toward that. We appreciate your appearing voluntarily from Lackland base to appear here today. THAT LETTER, AND THE ENCLOSURES STATE THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO COUNSEL IF YOU WANT COUNSEL PRESENT, AND IF YOU DESIRE TO HAVE COU present I can suspend this now. Mr. PIC. I have nothing to hide, sir. Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, John. 7 Mr. ELY. I just wanted to check on a couple of addresses with you, sir. 914 Hennesey, do you remember that? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. ELY. What about Taft Place? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. You attended William Frantz Elementary School in Dallas, did you not? Mr. PIC. New Orleans. Mr. JENNER. With your brother, Robert? Mr. PIC. What grade was I in, sir. He was two grades behind me. If I was in the third, he was there. If I wasn't, he wasn't. Mr. JENNER. WELL, THE RECORD SHOWS YOU ENROLLED IN WILLIAM FRANTZ SCHOOL AT 3811 NORTH GALVEZ ON THE 16TH OF SEPTEMBER 1936 at which time you were 4½ years old. Mr. PIC. Well, he wouldn't be there. Mr. JENNER. Not at that time. He was then 2½. Do you recall transferring from William Frantz Elementary School to George Washington Elementary School? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. Mr. JENNER. Was that some time in late September or in November, perhaps of 1940. Mr. PIC. Well, prior to that we went to another place, sir. Mr. JENNER. Your first elementary school was William Frantz? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Mr. JENNER. And you attended William Frantz until when, to the best of your recollection? Mr. PIC. I don't think I attended William Frantz after—— Mr. JENNER. The death of your stepfather? Mr. PIC. YES, SIR; SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE. WE WENT TO A BOARDING SCHOOL OVER IN GRETNA, LA. INFANT JESUS COLLEGE WAS THE NAME of it, I believe, both Robert and I, and we hated the place. Mr. JENNER. That was a very short period of time? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; because we hated the place. Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. Mr. PIC. I don't know whether it was before Washington or after. I think it was before Washington. Mr. JENNER. PERHAPS I CAN REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION THIS WAY. YOUR STEPFATHER DIED IN AUGUST OF 1939. YOU WERE THEN LIVING IN THE house at the corner of Alvar and Galvez which you recall as Alvez and Galvez. DO YOU RECALL THAT SOME MONTHS AFTER THE DEATH OF YOUR FATHER AND IN THE FOLLOWING YEAR, THE LATE WINTER OR EARLY SPRING, THA moved from that house? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a physician by the name of Mancuso? Mr. PIC. It may or may not be familiar, sir. I don't know. Mr. JENNER. HE WAS THE DOCTOR WHO DELIVERED LEE, AND ALSO THE MAN WHO RENTED THE HOUSE IN WHICH YOU HAD BEEN LIVING. DO YOU recall that? Mr. PIC. No, sir. Mr. JENNER. You do recall leaving that house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; sometime afterward. Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was a matter of months and not a matter of years? Mr. PIC. It had to be months, sir, because I have got something else for 1940 here. Mr. JENNER. When you moved from the house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather, do you recall moving to 1242 Congress Street? Mr. PIC. No, sir. I remember moving to a Bartholomew Street. MR. JENNER. THAT BARTHOLOMEW STREET, I WILL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT, PERHAPS TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION WAS A LITTLE HOUSE your mother purchased on contract. Mr. PIC. What, Bartholomew? Mr. JENNER. Yes. Mr. PIC. I remember that house. 8