THOM MAYNE INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTION Note: This was interview was conducted June 22 at the Morphosis studios in Santa Monica, CA. The text in bold is the voice of ARCHI-TECH Managing Editor Maureen Patterson. The text not bolded is architect Thom Mayne. This transcript is the property of Stamats Communications Inc., and cannot be reproduced or excerpted without the express, written permission by Stamats Communications Inc. Yeah, and this is great talking to you, too, because your career, you know, you're such an innovator in blending architecture and technology, which is exactly what we write about. So, one of my first questions is, you talk about change a lot, I've seen you talking about change throughout your career, why do you push the boundaries, why change, why not just go with the status quo or make a better version of the old? Because, change is the medium of the 20th century, to start with. It is the subject, to some degree, of the 20th century and certainly it's accelerating. [laughter] I'll tell you, it's so basic, I've… it's so… I… I… it's not even something… it's so accepted now… Right. Well, if you look at it, say, in cultural terms today, I would have said that the complexities that are taking place in our country right now culturally and politically [seem] to be dividing , fairly equally, two different visions Umhmm. of the world that are, the question you asked. And one is a conservative status quo position, which is in some cases even worse than status quo, it's looking nostalgically at some past Umhmm. and is yearning for that past, and it's somehow connected to a [usefulness?] for dealing with current problems. Or it still has to deal with the world as it exists. And there's another group of people that see the world [as it is]. So the first one, the first vision, clearly operates off of fixed narratives, philosophy, Sure. mostly religious narratives and sees the world in more transcendental fixed terms – that the world is given certain, the outlook of the human character is somewhat fixed, and it's been fixed for 2 or 3,000 years, if you start with the first or second [testament? or wherever you] want to go. And there's another group that believes in a [complete] different, in a general trope, a system of things. It would be I guess a set of ideas that were set in place in the middle to the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, and it'd be the major characters that started redefining our world – Darwin and Freud and Marx, and literally all of art, no matter where you [want to be] in the 20th century Sure. whether it was Brecht in film and Picasso and Duchamp, and no matter where you go, Le Corbusier would be Sure. representing this new view, Einstein of course within physics, Freud within the mind. And they reinvented the world. Right. And everybody is educated to some degree Right. [connected] to education. Sure. 1 of 35 THOM MAYNE It'd be impossible to read the paper today - if you're reading about carbon dating, if you're looking at the relationship of anthropology, geology, paleontology, any of the sciences, medicine of any type, it begins with these ideas. Right. And they're radically invested in the ephemerality of philosophy, the ephemerality of what we know, and where the unknowable becomes equally interesting to the knowable - does that make sense? Hmm. And as an architect, you can't escape idea structures, because all architecture is, is it's a departure point that starts from asking questions and some sort of interrogation, investigation, Umhmm. research, and it concretizes those, the conclusions of those ideas. Right. We just Right. make permanent notions of world views. And, well, I think today you realize that because the ideas themselves, the theories themselves, the premises we use to guide our lives, are malleable, flexible, changing, evolving, it completely affects your outlook on your day-to-day life, your politics, your own work within your discipline. So that within architecture, you realize that, actually like the business world today, one has to be agile, alert, aware, awake, always looking for the shifts taking place that you are corresponding to, and of course in the last even two decades, the shifts in my discipline have been tremendous - with computation, with radically different kind of possibilities having to do with the way we produce things through computational methods, the computer, etc. And through the advance of thinking that's parallel to that, that would be parallel to a complexity theory or any number of things taking place in biology, the sciences, the shift in cultural perspective [into] a broader, Sure… more heterogeneous kind of world versus a monolithic world. So again, you start with an idea of beauty, or the notion of an aesthetic. Well, the first discussion is: Whose is that? By which culture? Right. It's not a singular. Right. [So], well, that leads you to kind of question: Is beauty kind of an operational idea in architecture? Umhmm. So I'm going to say no, it's not, because I'm going to immediately say, well, if the beauty is, then who's the decision-maker in beauty? And it's going to lead you someplace else. And again, this is having to do with the types of questions you asked, a kind of an investigation into that, what do you think architecture is or isn't. Right. And [I'm going to say], no, actually you're going to start an investigation and what you're going to do is, you're going to locate architecture to a particular project, and it's going to be much more specific and idiosyncratic to a particular piece of work, meaning the work isn't coming out of a stylistic idea, [which is] part of this. You don't start with style or formal idea, you start with first principle questions. And so [one of] the first questions is - by the way, how does architecture participate with education, what's our role, [what do we do?] Umhmm. 2 of 35 THOM MAYNE We're not assuming we're going to build a building in a certain style or, that's not what it, that's not the most interesting problem. Right. It's like, how do we participate? Education starts with some ability to project inquiry Umhmm. [in] a process of thinking that's going to be with you for the rest of your life. Umhmm. Other than just memorizing rote stuff that you, ok, you know, and you know Lincoln and you know history to a certain degree, and you know certain subjects. Sure. But more important is actually the process it begins in terms of the method of inquiry and investigation that stays with you, and, of course - advancing even - curiosity. Well, so, we look at, well, that's interesting, [because] architecture Right. [can] participate with that Sure. [and] we can automatically start looking at a work that challenges certain conventions, and intentionally challenges or provokes thinking. And it is fascinating, [because I remember] going through that. A lot of the teachers we were presenting to, thought we were overshooting the students; and I went back to myself and said, actually, we're overshooting the teachers. [laughter] The students are fine. Right. Twelve-year-olds are great clients for architecture. They're still open. A house doesn't look like a Spanish, neo-Spanish, it doesn't, they're not already preconditioned culturally. Right. They're completely open. But [ ]… It can look like a stealth fighter, it can look like nothing, it looks like something they invent - a stegosaurus - it's irrelevant. And so we ended up with a kind of a landscape, an architecture which [mimics] landscape, and which was part of the landscape, and nothing was vertical, every line had to be bent, and it had a certain logic… And the point being, it led us to a direction of an architecture, but it started from a broader issue [of] the participation of architecture. [If] we look at, hmm, funny, I look at this container, uhh [table noise] - if I was going to show that to a group of students and say, we're going to redesign that container, what's our first step? And a lot of them would just start saying, it's this shape or it's this shape or we're going to come up with a more sexy thing, or that would be one group of people. Umhmm. [And it] would be the largest group. Another one could say, instead of answering the question, they would ask questions. Hmm. And they would say, well, how many of these are made? 3 of 35 THOM MAYNE Umhmm. Oh, a billion a year, easily a billion. All right. How many times is it used? Once. Oh. How much total material is involved in it, what's it made out of? Oh, X amount of tons of blah blah blah. When it gets discarded, where does it go? Right. When you discard it, how many square meters of space does it take for that three billion containers a year? Sure. How long does it take to de-evolve naturally, and does it emit anything, are there toxins? - [a] really different way of approaching the problem. Right. The first one, most of the public would think that's what architects do - style, restyle. Right. I'm interested in the second one. Umhmm, and you're [ ]… And then out of that - let me finish. Go ahead. And then out of that comes a new cup. [ ] You're still going to develop it, it's still going to look like something, it'll have formal properties, you're going to design it, but, …. it's an example of a deeper notion, of a real notion, of the location of an architecture, of a designed object. And that talks about the relationship [of] how all work starts with the nature of the investigation and the types of questions you ask. Umhmm. Because again, you can look across the street, and just a typical - whatever this thing is over here, the condominium - and then the questions start with kind of, how do I, what color's the façade, and how do I shape proportions on a façade, and [finger snap] - done. [Leads you to that?], right? Umhmm. [And I] could have started with, well, what does it mean, urbanistically, to place a building in the city Sure and should I think about the nature and Right. how it relates to the street, or should I have public spaces, and [you can] talk about the nature of what does it mean to design a residence today for a certain kind of demographic, and by the way, who's the demographic? Radically different demographic than it was even two decades ago, over 51 percent of women work, a huge amount of the workforce is women that have children [and work] and on and on, we can just start penetrating and find out, well, it leads to a kind of a different kind of environment, Sure. different set of needs, and again, it would lead you to a different project. Right. 4 of 35 THOM MAYNE [And] finally it would look like something, but it's going to look different than this, but it would be much more fundamental Right. [to an] organizational idea, and to really fundamental notions to kind of what the problem is. [Versus], if you start with a cake decoration Right. [and don't] care about the cake. Right. [That's a great one, actually] [laughter] Yeah. All you do is kind of decorate it and that's what you think architecture is. And I go no.. Today, anybody knows that the culture of food is completely changed, and again, in the last couple decades. Start with Alice - where are you from? I'm from St. Louis; I live in Iowa …. Ok, do you know Alice Waters? No. She's in Berkeley, has a famous restaurant, Chez Panisse. Alice Waters kind of completely shifted the culture of food Umhmm. and from kind of an American - oh, it's a, it's all borrowed from Europe, more or less, French, German, English, whatever, right? - and from kind of the heavy sauces and in terms of the top food restaurants. Umhmm. She's from California, totally reinvented the lighter, smaller, completely fresh, simple, clean, closer to maybe to some Italian kind of ideas, a new idea, it became nouvelle or something, and completely changed the notion of food having to do with health. Umhmm. Food that is actually, is useful for your body, that's up to date with what we know, about the relationship with our culture of food and how it acts on us chemically, right, biologically. And she's given huge credit for promoting and educating huge numbers of people that have now become kind of connoisseurs of both good food. Right. They eat well, and a food that actually is useful for you Right. [and that] it takes in account Sure. proper contents of fat and calories, etc. Right. And, well, she's a designer. [laughter] That's what we all do, right? 5 of 35 THOM MAYNE Yeah. But it includes something that's kind of deeper, and she actually changed the culture of food, which is a much bigger project than just her own Right. status as a chef, Right. right, or whatever, [I mean], she has huge kind of status. The bigger thing is, she changed the culture. And, well Yeah. That's the interesting [part of it/project?], isn't it? Yeah, I gave a speech and I asked, I was asked to give a speech to a company, and I said what is a building? Half the people probably looked at me like I was an idiot, but, what is a building? You know, if you start asking those kinds of questions, you're not going to answer it the same way you did 100 years ago. Of course not. Five years ago. No. You wanted to talk about San Francisco. Yeah. Exact same example. We show up in San Francisco, [we're in] a competition, and one of them was a well- known San Francisco firm, SOM in San Francisco, and probably the most, the kind of best-known firm there. Umhmm. And, well, there's a huge rivalry between the two cities. Umhmm. And most of it just, I'm not sure if there's any reality in it at all, but it's one of these rivalries that you never know kind of how it started Yeah. but I'm not sure kind of how much reality it is, but it doesn't matter, it's incredibly real. And so, there are already articles in the paper, the word was out - "Aggressive, radical" -because we're still labeled, again, you guys kill us. You guys being the press [laughter] put labels on us - like the "bad boy" thing won't go away and I'm still, I'm 63 years old, and now I'm enjoying it, at 63. [Kris Sullivan calls you]… If I'm a bad boy, I'm like, well, my kids joke at me and say, dad, we're proud of you. They, Now you're cool. [they're still calling you a] "bad boy" and you're 63, you must be doing something right. And [Chris Sullivan] calls you the good guy. [laughter] And they stay with you. Yeah. 6 of 35 THOM MAYNE But anyway, here we show up and we're known as this kind of aggressive design firm, and a kind of radical firm, which is, I guess, taking the language, [and they, they] represent, so whatever we do looks like something, and that's really what gets talked about. For instance, what we're talking about, by the way. Most people look at the final thing and just categorize it, and put you in a category. That's where the nature of the result of the work is not just contemporary, but is fairly aggressive in a contemporary sense. which I think is [a major?] difference from the norm - if that's a word - just away from the norm, is really what they're saying. Sure. Which is also an interesting subject, why people don't talk, is that "radical" even a useful term? Because I think it's a totally useless term. I don't know what it means. Radical meant something at the beginning of the century - it means nothing today. [We use a lot of terms]… [None of us are radical,] we're using [We use a lot of terms that no one]… [We're actually] all trained and are embedded with ideas that come from Marinetti and Le Corbusier and Loos and all the people that established these ideas. They were truly radicals in the '20s. And the discussion should be, for me it started with, like, it's a distance from some norm, and what does that mean if you move out of the norm. And in a lot of things, it's a good thing. It's a good thing in science - you move the norm way over here, and it's considered the best thing. In fact, the further where you put the norm, if it follows an advance in new logic, I think you're even honored - you get Nobels for that, all right? And so I would have said with architecture, no, of course not. [Move…it's] something, a more nuanced discussion of what it means to move the norm - by the way, how are you moving it? It's just not by the look. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? - would be the first conversation. Anyway, [you look at] San Francisco, so, here we come and we have all these articles: The bad boy radical firm invades San Francisco. [laughter] Conservative cultural town - not politically, which is interesting. LA in some ways more conservative politically, but more adventurous formally and artistically; and San Francisco, this, probably center of liberalism in the United States - Berkeley is just kind of, it's kind of a unique city in that you can smoke a joint walking down the street and the police won't, Yeah. it's a really unique, kind of lovely place in the whole country - and, umm, but conservative culturally. Well, we heard all this. We already had decided here, we sat down and decided strategically, tactically, never [to] discuss design; it will never be talked about. We're going to take three things - they were just obvious, on this kind of building. It's a generic office building, really, that houses various departments of the government, a fairly large building. To begin with, we're going to challenge the assumption of "genericness" - why is the building generic? Why is an office building generic? It's generic because people accept it as generic, and we're going to challenge that. And then the three basic areas [we're to look at], [we're going] to look at the building as an urban generator Umhmm. [producing?] urban space which is obvious to San Francisco, and would be the way to differentiate San Francisco and LA. It's a place that still is connected to European urbanism, let's say. The plaza and pedestrian [world], which LA is not, and we were going to look at that and promote that. We were going to look at the culture of the workplace, which in our estimation had to do with challenging the "genericness" of the space. And a place now where you would have a majority of your awake life, and we were going to look at what that meant, to kind of look at that in social terms, and connective, interactive terms that has to do with the way people work within institutional cultures. And we were going to challenge the notion of resources - how the building uses energy, and responds to that. And that's something that we [were already] working with for a couple of years on several buildings with double skins and all that. And we went to work on those three areas, and the aesthetic was going to be 7 of 35 THOM MAYNE a byproduct, a result of [those]. And knowing, ,that was going to be the most difficult area, and we would never win battles on aesthetic terms, if we were going to, like, really pursue [them] purely on either philosophical or conceptual or artistic terms, but that would not be a place we would want to make a battle. That's not where you want to draw the lines. And it became really interesting because with that, of course, there was something that was really lovely. We knew that our positions on these three things were going to be in complete alignment with the liberalism of the city. Right. So, I was smiling all the time knowing I'm going to put these people in a really tough place. Right. Because I'm going to give them, within these three territories, arguments that I know they're going to agree with. Right. [They'll] be impossible to disagree with, based on my own comfort with their positions on these issues. Sure. And so I'm going to make it very difficult on them to reject the aesthetic, because now they're going to have, they're going to have to develop some argument, and I had no idea where they would go, because I just gave them a very clear argument within these three territories, and all the things they're looking at are a result of that. Right. So, you take the most obvious - so the building is thin Umhmm. and tall. Well, the thin and tall building is a five-story, well, several things happened. First of all, I was there at a weird time when the homeless had taken over a lot of the open spaces, and the open space they didn't want. And I'm going, whoa, this is really weird, here I come to San Francisco to give you a plaza which is part of the city, and they wanted a kind of a five-story building, on the building, and we took the five-story building and just kind of tipped it up, and gave them the space. And then of course, we're next to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. And so we take the plaza and put the plaza in front of the court, and I'm going, well, that's the way it should be. Well, that's the way it's been since 2,000 years of Western architectural history. And [then we're going to shore] the façade. Well, they just put in $200 million and completely renovated the building, and it's one of the most beautiful, it's one of the icons of San Francisco, and it's both an icon as a building and as an institution. Sure. And the Ninth Circuit is infamous. Sure. It's been overturned the most, it's the most liberal, and it's well-known Sure. representing San Francisco, so it's really, at a nuanced level, very interesting. Yeah. And we put a plaza in front of it. So we, [and we tipped the building up], well, we brought with us European [standards], and, we'd been working in Austria, and the buildings are narrow, and they're narrow because you get light and air Umhmm. and they just, it's not the mechanics of the building, it's the shape of the building that really affects performance. 8 of 35 THOM MAYNE Ok. And so by making the building narrow, it's 55 feet wide, it worked with the performance of the building urbanistically, and it automatically gave us a floor plate where we knew we had natural light and we had the potential of using air. And it started an idea of, the urban idea. Well, then we looked at the performance, and again it goes back to the earlier conversations when we were with our mechanical engineer, our consulting team, he just asked the question, because you know San Francisco, you know, it's kind of a benign climate, and zero degrees or whatever, if that was in Vienna, it would look like that, this being the winter, being summer, except it's even more, whatever, it was like that. Right. I was looking at San Francisco and I'm going, you know, I'll bet it looks kind of like that. Umhmm. All right? Very, very little change, and [working with] Ove Arup engineering, a very, very good design firm, really, engineering firm, and the next time we meet, a couple days later, [he's] going, the answer was - and [the] question is, could we take the air-conditioning out, could we just use the air and just move it around, and the answer was, possibly, actually. Because of … Then why hasn't it been done? Has it been done before? No. how come? Don't know, No one has done it. [We] start that question going. Ends up the answer was, actually, we can do it. Right. Strangely enough, all we're doing is opening windows - really complicated - insanely complicated. Yeah? [laughter] It took two years, worked with Lawrence Berkeley labs,. They worked with Ove Arup, it took them two years, and their windows are opening top and bottom to control temperature [at a] performance range [on] a concrete building. The slab - you've seen it, right? The slab looks like this Yeah. and it directs air through it Right. has to be concrete for thermal mass, it cools down at night, we have radiance during the day. Right. [The outside] has a double skin. Right. The skin opens and closes, and even with low breezes, it pulls the air through, through the south face, and it gets warm, and the warm air pulls it up, and then we have the fins on the back side, and they help guide the air in Right. and they also protect from incident light in extreme summer Right. solstice, like yesterday, and today, at sunset and sun-up, because at sun-up you don't want the building to warm up still, you want to keep it cool. And the north façade, the south façade, the building - the depth of the building, the concrete, the ceiling, the raw concrete can't be covered. Right. It has to be raw, because if you're using the concrete, it has to be exposed 9 of 35 THOM MAYNE Sure. to the air. And so, all of a sudden, they look at the concrete - of course, I think it's quite beautiful, and it's this beautiful kind of rolling thing and it's raw concrete. And then, we said, well, we don't want anything added. So the only thing you'll see are little tiny sprinkler holes, and so it's completely clean. So there are no lights - meaning the lights have to go up, or they should go up anyway. So [it's almost like], the ceiling is what it is. And again, we go back and say, ooh, concrete ceiling, uhh, it looks like an architect's ceiling. Well, it's actually, it's performance. Right. And then you look at the façade that is metal and you go, ooh, wow, this is a really modern stainless steel [perforated] metal - well, you have to see through it, for the view Right. and it's actually 58 percent open Umhmm. so it takes out 45 percent of the sun, because we don't want incident energy. But you can see through it, like the blinds we have, actually more so than the other rooms, it's like a Meco blind, and so it doesn't take out the view. And then the other side, you can see straight through the windows, because it's north, but they have the fins. And so both those elevations are what they are. And [so they said], like, well, they want brick or stone or marble. And I go, well, umm, they move, they're very lightweight, they open and close, you can't move stone So performance was [ ]… right? So you look at it and go, well, what else could you use? There's nothing. Yeah. It's some sort of a punctured metal, or, we could have done something much higher tech. Right. And it could have been a high-performance material, a Kevlar, but now we're talking about money, and we built it for very little money. We built it for the standard government budget. Right. So we had no money, which is the actual medium, low-medium, just about, building. And that's even more important, because we weren't given an endless budget to Yeah. [build a] prototype, we were given a standard budget and we had to keep on our budget. And so again, and then what happens, which is really, really fun because the same thing happened with the courthouse in Oregon, with the very conservative judge Yeah, there's [a story]. is that actually I can win over people. Right. And so in a way, have you ever seen the lunar landing module that we put on the moon? At the Aerospace? Yeah, oh yeah. I remember the first time I saw that. I was completely blown away. I was born in '44, and I grew up with Flash Gordon, and a rocket looked like kind of a bullet, with stuff coming out of it. Yeah. And you look at this thing and of course it has no aerodynamic shape because it doesn't have to resist; it's a capsule, it doesn't have to resist anything. And you look at it - do you remember how funky it was? 10 of 35