AdlerInterview1 December8,2016 Interviewer: FRED HOROWITZ Interviewee: SARAADLERandJIM ADLER FRED: Thisis Fred Horowitz. This istheinterviewof SaraandJimAdler. I’llbethe interviewer.Thedateis November19,2016, atthelovelyAdlerresidence. Saraspecifiedthat thisinterviewmustincludeJimbecausehe’s been apartofherlifeasanarbitratorsincethe beginning. Thefirstquestion IwanttoaskSaraandJimishowdid you meeteachother? SARA: Thatoneisreallysimple. IwasalawstudentatUSC andJimwas teaching legalwriting. Iwasassignedtohim. Theywereusingpracticinglawyerstoteachlegalwritingatthatstage. Andfortunately,hedid not grademe. JIM: Veryhonorable. FRED: Howlongdidittakebeforetherewas amutualattractiondeveloped? SARA: Ithinkprobablyprettyquicklybutbecauseofthefactthatwewereteacherand studentitdidn’texactlydevelopveryquickly. On theotherhand,wehadbeenworkingas 1 studentandteacheroffandonformonthsbeforewefirstwentoutin March,andthenwegot marriedthatAugust. FRED: That’swonderful. Sohowdideachof you getinterestedinlaborlaw? Jim,did yourinterestdevelop firstbeforeSara’s? JIM: Well,maybe. IwasatPrincetonandtherewasacoursein LaborEconomics taughtbyRichard Lester. Itookitandenjoyedit.When IwenttolawschoolatMichigan Ihad qualifiedforthelawreviewand Ihadtopickaprojectformynote. TheprojectthatIpicked wasbasedontheSteelworkers casethatwashandledbyArthurGoldbergandhis firmwhere theywerechallengingaTaft-HartleyInjunctionsoughtbytheGovernmenttoforcethe Steelworkersbacktowork. Sothis musthavebeeninabout’57,or’58,’59. Somethinglike that. TheSteelworkers had goneonstrike. Thegovernmenthad gottenaTaft-HartleyInjunction andtheSteelworkerschallengeditonthebasisthattherewas enoughsteel availabledespitethe strike. AnditwentfromDistrictCourttotheCourtofAppealstotheSupremeCourtin somethinglikefivedays. Iwas impressedbythelawyeringand enjoyedthesubstanceand becameininterested LaborLawbecauseofthat. FRED: And youweremarriedatthetime? JIM: No. Thiswasbefore. Thiswaswaybefore. FRED: Howabout you, Sara? Howdid yourinterestin Labor Lawstart? 2 SARA: Well, Ialways knewaboutunions becausemyfatherwas apediatricianwhose practicewasprincipallycomposedofsteelworkers.Inthosedaysthereweresteelmills inGary, IndianaandsouthofChicagowherewelived. Whentheywould goonstrike, whichtheydid fromtimetotime,wedidn’thavemuchincome. SoIknewaboutUnions andstrikes atavery earlyage. Ireallygottoknow moreaboutitand getinterestedinitbecausemyparentsdidn’t exactlybelievein allowances. When Iwas14 and 1day, Igotmyworkpermit. Iwenttowork foracousinwho was oneoftheprominentUnion sidelawyers inChicago, Harold Katzwiththe firmthen knownas Katz&Friedman. Iworked forthemallthroughhigh schoolandallthrough college. Igotto knowalotaboutthelabormovement. FRED: Sowhydon’twejustcorrelatewhereeachof you werewhen you metand got married,justsowecansetthescene. SARA: IwenttocollegeattheUniversityofChicago,then movedtoCaliforniawitha formerhusband. Iworkedforafew yearsand wentbacktolawschoolaboutsix yearsoutfrom college. That’swhereImetJim.IwenttocollegeattheUniversityofChicago,then movedto Californiawithaformerhusband. FRED: Whenshegraduatedwhatwere youdoing,Jim? JIM: Iwas lawyeringat Munger,Tolles,Hills&Olson. Igraduatedfromlawschoolin ’61. IclerkedattheSupremeCourtandthen IworkedfortheDepartment ofLabor,the 3 DepartmentofCommerceandthePovertyProgramin Washington. Icameouthereandstarted workinMarchof’65for Munger,Tolles. FRED: Doingmanagement-sideLabor Lawfromthebeginning? JIM:Thatwasthebiggestpartofthepractice. IstartedworkingwithRodHills andthat wasthebiggestpartofhispractice. FRED: Thenatsomepointyouwentto Irell&Manella? JIM: 1982. FRED:Sara,tellusaboutyourjourneyfromlawschooltobecominganarbitrator. SARA: Well, Ihadalot ofjobs. When IgraduatedlawschoolIworkedfortheCenter forCriminalJusticeAdministrationatUCDavis immediatelyoutoflawschool. Then Iworked forasolopractitioner. FRED: Whatdidhedo orshedo? SARA: Itwasshe. Shewentontobecomeasuperiorcourtjudge. When Iworked for her,shehadjustaneighborhoodpractice. ThenextjobIrememberwas Iwenttoworkfora firmthen called Wyman, Bautzer,Rothman&Kuchel,whicheventuallydisappeared. Butwhile 4 Iwas thereitwas abigbusinesslitigationfirmthathadasmalllaborpractice. Ididsomeof that. Ihatedlitigationandneededto getout. Jimand Ihavedifferent memories ofhowIcame toknowaboutJoeGentile.but ultimately,JimconnectedJoe andmetogether. Hetookmeon asanapprentice. FRED: WhatwasJoe’s reactiontotaking youon? Becauseas Iunderstandityoudidn’t havealotoflaborexperiences as apractitionerorasacardcarryingunion member. SARA: You’dprobablyhavetoaskJoe. Buthewaswillingtotryitout. Onanumber ofgroundshesuggestedthatIprobablywasnotgoingtobesuccessfulbuthewaswillingtolet mehaveashotat makingit. When Istartedtodo this IwenttoBenAaron whohadbeen my laborlawprofessoratUCLAand forwhom Ihad workedwhenhewasdevelopingtheemployee relationsordinancefortheCountyof LosAngeles. Benthoughtitwas theworstideahehad everheard. Iwas awomanwheretherewereno womeninthe fieldinSouthernCalifornia. I wasmarriedto amanagementlaborlawyer. Ididn’thaveastrongbackgroundinlaborlaw. FRED: That’sonlythreestrikes. SARA: Hethoughttherehadtobesomeotherbetterwayfor meto getoutofpracticing lawinacircumstancethatIwasn’thappywith. MybeliefwasthatJimwouldkeepusinfood andshelterandtheworst thatcouldhappenis Ifellflatonmyface. FRED: Approximatelywhat year wasthatwhen… 5 SARA: 1978. JIM: Ithink yououghtto giveanodtoanotherimportantAcademymemberinthis story. That’sSylGarrett. When IwasattheDepartmentofLabor, Iwasassignedtobelikea lawclerkto Syl Garrettwhohadbeenselectedto decidethelastremainingissuesintheChicago Northwestern-Telegrapher’sDisputewhichhadbeen goingonfor years. I learned fromSyl aboutthewayheconductedhisarbitrationpracticeandthathehadpeoplewhoworkedforhim. Theywentoutanddidthehearings buthesignedtheDecisions. HereviewedtheDecisions. So whenSaradecidedthatshewantedtotrylaborarbitrationIthoughtofJoeGentilebecauseJoe hadaverybusypractice. Hehad morethanhecouldhandle. Ithoughtmaybethis methodof proceedingwouldappeal toJoe. Well,itturnedoutthatJoewasverygraciousbuthewasnot comfortablehavingSaradohearingsorwritehisDecisions,buthetookhertoallhishearings andintroducedhertoallthepeoplethathedealtwith,whichwasabigpartoftheSouthern Californiapractice. Itwasn’tquitethewaythatSam KegelbroughtJohninorthatSylGarrett brokeinthestableof arbitratorsthathadtheiroriginswithSyl. ButSylwasreallysortofthe fatherofallofthis inawaythathewouldn’thaveimagined. FRED: BeforeIask you about gettingstartedand howyouwerereceived backinthose days,in1979,therewas aLaborArbitratorDevelopmentProgramatUCLAthatRegAlleyne proctoredtheacademicportionand FMCSandAAAandacoupleofUnionsandtheCountyBar co-sponsored. EdnaFrancis,KenPereaand Iwere3ofthe20peopleinthatprogram.Did you knowaboutthatprogram? 6 SARA: Ididn’t knowaboutthatprogramwhenit was goingon.Atroughlythesame timetheABAranan arbitratordevelopmentprogramthat MeiBicknerwas in. FRED: Maybe Igot yourspotthen. Thatwasabreak. Itwasawonderful program. It tookaboutthree years andIthinkKenandEdnaandIweretheonlyones who “madeit”. They werearbitrators right awayand Ihadto waitafewyears forotherreasons beforeImadethe switch.MyexperienceinterningwithTomRobertswassimilarto yours withJoeofjustmeeting peopleuntilfinallygettingsomecases. Whatwas thebreakthat you gotandhowwere you receivedbythoseearlyparties? Because, again, youwerethefirst,probably, woman,in SouthernCaliforniathattheyhadtodealwith. SARA: Well, IthinkIwas. Iwas abletomakethemovedifferentlyandin someways moresuccessfully,becauseofJim. Joeintroduced metoalotofpeople,so Ihadsomehalo effectfromthat. Jimwas verywellnetworkedinthelabor-managementcommunityandwas verywellrespectedbybothsides. People, Ithink,figuredthat Iwasn’tstupidandmaybe sensibleaboutlaborlaw. ImeanitreallywaslargelyahaloeffectfromJimthat, Ithink,started meinadifferentwaythanmanyothers. TheveryfirstcasethatIwas everselectedforwas a privatesectorcase. ItwaswithPaulHastingsand Iamsurethatthatcamebecausetheythought wellofJim. Ithadnothingtodowithmeindividually. Beingthespouseofalaborlawyerisan issueforthenowsmallnumberofuswhoaremarriedtoactivelypracticinglawyers. Someon theunion-sideandsomeonthemanagement-side. Youcantellwhat kinds oflawyerstheyare bywhetherornottheirspousesareabletomakeitas arbitratorsbecausethosearenotseparate 7 factorsinthelabor-managementcommunity. Thereallyaggressiveordoctrinairelawyerson eithersidehavespouses thatcan’t makeit. FRED: Howlongdidittake youtofeel comfortablesittingupthereattheheadofthe tableand managingthesehearings? SARA: Likealotofpeopleinmyposition,IspentalotoftimedoingCivilService work. Also,inthosedays theCaliforniacourtshadpaidarbitrationforsmallercases asa litigationalternative. Ididalotofthose. Ihadan incomealmostfromtheget go. It wasnot finalandbindingauthority. butitgave meachancetodevelopskills as aneutral. I’dbeen trainedinalitigationfirmso Iknewalotabouthowtheprocess worked, atleastincourt. Ihad beentrainedbysomeofthebestlitigators inCalifornia. Iwas firstadmittedtoAAA’s Commercialpaneland fromtheveryearly80’s Iwasdoingseniorexecutivecases fromthat panel. FRED: And youwatchedalotofJoe’s hearings? JoeGentile’s hearings? SARA: IwatchedalotofJoe’scases. FRED: When Iwas a younglawyerIappearedbeforeJoe. Hehad,andprobablystill has,averyaggressiveandbrusquestyleas aneutral. Howdid youviewthatstyleas itwould applyto yourownstyleofrunningahearing? 8 SARA: Well, Istartedoutknowingthat Icouldn’tdowhatJoedid. Imust say,overthe years I’vegotten moreandmorelikehimandlessandless willingtoletthe parties justwander offontheirowninpaths andbyways thatIthinkareirrelevant. ButatthebeginningIwas much moreopentolettingthepartiesdowhattheythoughttheyneededtodo knowingthat Icouldn’t pullofftheJoeGentilestyle. Theotherreallystronglesson IlearnedfromJoewastonever makeabenchdecision. Iwaswithhimonedaywhenhedid. I’munder5feettallandhe’sover 6feet. Hemadeabench decisionand IwatchedtheGrievant comeafterhim. Idecidedif a grievantwouldcomeaftersomebodywhowas over6feettallandbroad,there’s no wayIwas goingtotakethatrisk. FRED:Sara, among yourmanyaccomplishments in yourcareerisbeingactiveina varietyofLaborManagementorganizationsbesidestheAcademy. Iimagineyou’reactivein otherorganizationsaswell. Tellusabouthowthatinterestdeveloped. SARA: Well,frommyviewpointitwassortofanobrainer. TheLabor Management communityisarelativelysmallcommunity. Thelikelihoodofa womanbecomingacceptableor reallyanyarbitratorbecomingacceptableis to get toknowthecommunityandallowthemto get toknow you. Oneof myearlycaseswas outattheHarboratTodd Shipyard(thatnolonger exists). DuringmyveryfirstcaseattheShipyard therewas aflowatthebackoftheroom. I finallyaskedcounselwhatwas goingon. Theysaid,“everybodywantstoknowwhatawoman arbitratorlookslike”. Iwasn’tsurewhattheythoughtthatcouldbe. Also,Jimwasinvolved withatleastthe LACountyBar’s LaborandEmploymentLawSectionfairlyheavily. In fact, I followedhimas PresidentoftheLACountyBar LaborEmploymentSection.Iwasalso PresidentofwhatwasthentheLosAngeles ChapteroftheIndustrialRelationsResearch 9 Association, IRRA,alsoafterJimbyafew years. HewasinvolvedwiththeABAand Icameto thatalittlelate. ButwiththeADR Committee(onlyitwasthen Labor LawandtheLawof CollectiveBargaining)whilehewasinvolvedwithothercommittees.IwasChairofthat committeeandthemost usefulthingIdidwas getthecommitteetotakeoverdoingElkouri whentheElkourisannouncedthattheywerenotdoinganyfurther workon thebook. FRED: Ididn’t know youwereresponsibleforthat. That’samajorachievement. SARA: It’sinthefirstvolumethatIdid. Theyacknowledgedthefactthatthiswas my project.Itseemedtomethatitwasagoodplaceforitto go. Andagoodthingforthecommittee tobedoing. It gaveusanadditionalfocus. FRED: Inthecourseofthatorganizationalexperience, you areinvitedtobeaspeaker onpanels. Isthatanactivitythat youenjoyedorjustfeltitwas anecessaryadjunctofwhatwe doinourprofession? SARA: Someofeach. Andagain,inbeingan earlywomanintheprofession,ithad pluses andminuses. Oneofthepluseswasthateverybodywaslookingforawomanonthe panel. So Igottospeakmorethanprobablymostemergingarbitrators. Theywantedtoprove theywereinthemodern timesorsomething. FRED: Whendidotherwomenbeginseeking youradviceonbecominganarbitrator? 10