IN PARTNERSHIP WITH NATIONAL LIFE STORIES AN ORAL HISTORY OF BRITISH SCIENCE Professor Sir Tony Hoare Interviewed by Dr Thomas Lean C1379/52 © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk This interview and transcript is accessible via http://sounds.bl.uk. © The British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom +44 (0)20 7412 7404 [email protected] Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk The British Library National Life Stories Interview Summary Sheet Title Page Ref no: C1379/52 Collection title: An Oral History of British Science Interviewee’s Hoare Title: Professor Sir surname: Interviewee’s Tony Sex: Male forename: (Charles Anthony Richard) Occupation: Computer scientist Date and place of birth: Mother’s Father’s occupation: Colonial civil servant occupation: Dates of recording, Compact flash cards used, tracks (from – to): 17/05/2011 (1-3), 08/09/2011 (4-6), 12/10/2011 (7-8), 12/12/2011 (9-10), 09/01/2012 (11- 13),27/02/2012 (14-15) Location of Interviewee’s home, Cambridge. interview: Name of Thomas Lean interviewer: Type of recorder: Marantz PMD661 on secure digital Recording format : WAV 24 bit 48 kHz Total no. of tracks 15 Mono or stereo: Stereo Total Duration: 10:06:37 (HH:MM:SS) Additional material: Copyright/Clearan Interview open copyright to British Library. ce: Interviewer’s comments: © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 1 C1379/52 Track 1 Track 1 How about we start with me asking you to introduce yourself? Certainly [laughs]. I’m Tony Hoare, often publishing under the name CAR Hoare, which stands for Charles Anthony Richard Hoare but in recent years I have come to be known as Tony. When were you born? 11th of January 1934 in Colombo in Ceylon which is now Sri Lanka, at the Fraser Nursing Home and I spent my first eleven, ten years or so in Ceylon mostly. My father was a colonial civil servant and my mother was the daughter of a tea planter in Ceylon and they met out there and married out there. And had four children out there and I have two brothers and two sisters, one of whom was born in England after we came back in 1945. What were your parents’ names? My father was called Henry, HSM, Henry Samuel Malorty, and my mother was called Marjorie Francis Villas. Could you describe what your father was like to me please? Yes, handsome, fairly thin man and … [both laugh] … and he looked after us well [laughs]. What was his personality like? Very pleasant, quite humorous and sometimes a bit strict, but we had our usual sort of spats during adolescence but I’ve certainly come to respect him a lot more since then [laughs]. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 2 C1379/52 Track 1 And you said he was a colonial civil servant, whereabouts in the civil service did he work? Well it seemed to be rather general, he had a spell as the secretary or aide de conct [ph] of the governor but the longest spell was probably as principle collector of customs at Colombo port, a post which he occupied throughout the war. During the war his – the entire family, who were then just three boys and my mother, because refugees in – in Africa, we went to Africa to escape the dangers of the war in Ceylon because on the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse and the fall of Singapore Ceylon became indefensible and everybody was expecting a Japanese invasion. Which fortunately never happened, all that happened was a single air raid while we were still on the boat crossing to Africa, otherwise he was untouched by the war, as we were in Rhodesia. My father arranged that we should stay initially with a school friend of his who was a tobacco planter in Rhodesia, that was our introduction to emigrate life [ph]. We spent eighteen months or so in Rhodesia, my mother took a job as a matron in a school in Bulawayo and I and my brothers went to school in Gwelo. My brothers went to a nunnery school and I went to sort of conventional school based on the English model of a prep school called the Kingsley Fairbridge School, whether I did very well academically at least, but I was a bit of a handful [both laugh] from the point of view of discipline and … and particularly with my mother, apparently had some difficulty [laughs]. In what sense a handful? I think just basically just rude and disobedient in the way that [laughs] children are. My granddaughter had similar attributes at a similar age [laughs]. No, I think my own children were better behaved than I was. Well after eighteen months there was a prospect that we would be able to return to Ceylon and so we migrated to Durban which was the port of embarkation for a trip across the Indian Ocean. Unfortunately I think there were some resurgence of hostilities and so we had to stay there for six months, I went to school again there. [05:50] © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 3 C1379/52 Track 1 And eventually made it to meet this strange man who came [laughs] aboard to kiss my mother and welcome us home. And again went to school in Ceylon at a rather progressive school in Bandarawela. So I had a bit of a disturbed education which I remember chiefly from the fact that every school I attended I learnt least common multiples and greatest common dividers again [both laugh]. Then after quite a short time, oh perhaps six months in a school – in the school in Ceylon we got a passage back to England. Well I think it was delayed slightly by the birth of my sister, Dorothy Anne. And went to school in Oxford, Dragon School, which was the same school that my father had attended and started again with LCMs [both laugh] and … but I’d had very – very disrupted educational background, so I was starting in a fairly low form of the school and that they used to give fortnightly reports to the parents on the progress of their children and my progress reports weren’t very good. So after a month they put me down, down a whole year in fact, to – to learn with the brighter students who were a year young than me, that was a very good move. And in fact I was – after a few weeks I was no longer bottom of the class and by the end of the term I was top of the class. How did you feel about being put down that year? Well [both laugh] I didn’t – don’t remember resenting it [laughs]. But the school had a very progressive policy and when I was top of the class they put me up again to my standard year. And I followed similar progression from the bottom to the top and after a – a year I’d made it to the top form in the school in all my subjects so [laughs] I wasn’t quite top of that, in fact I was fairly low, remained fairly low down in the top class [laughs] [doorbell sounding]. [08:45] So my subjects were traditional at that time, Latin and Greek of course, mathematics, French, geography, divinity, physical education, which I never either liked or excelled at. And all these subjects I had effectively started my education when I came back to England. And made very rapid progress, sufficiently that they thought I would – had a good chance of getting a scholarship to a public school and there was a public school which had a closed scholarship which of course would be easier to get. The © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 4 C1379/52 Track 1 Kings School Canterbury had a scholarship which had been founded in memory of Milner, the sort of colonial, African colonial apologist and guru. And indeed so it proved, I got the scholarship and it supported quite a good proportion of the expenses of tuition at that school at that time. Both my brothers also got scholarships to the same school so we had a somewhat cheapened education [both laugh]. And did you have to go through any process to get the scholarship? Oh there was an examination, examination I think held at the prep school as far as I recall, which was marked. Since it was at – the scholarship was closed to the sons of colonial ex-civil servants so probably [laughs] wasn’t a very great field. So I went through the normal – entered the school in the fifth form and went through the normal curriculum of taking the school certificate after one year, and did very well in Latin and Greek and mathematics I think, and something else. And so the year after I was entered for the classical sixth form where I continued more intensive studies of Latin and Greek and subsidiary French. Subsidiary French I studied one year and subsidiary divinity for the other. And divinity was because I could read the – read the gospels in – in the original Greek, so that was not a very divine activity [laughs] but quite an interesting one. [11:55] Were you religious at all when you were growing? Yes, well intermittently, I lost my faith already at the school in Ceylon when the headmaster, whom I must have admired a lot admitted that he had no faith, but I reacquired it at the prep school and became in fact quite religious in the public school before losing my faith again some time in the sixth form. And I have never been tempted that way again since. Why did you regain it? I don’t know, I just suddenly was thinking, I think it was a sort of act of humility, how silly I was to set myself against the accepted wisdom of many centuries of religion. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 5 C1379/52 Track 1 And I lost it again because I couldn’t any longer believe in immorality of the soul, I couldn’t believe that I would – was condemned to live forever [laughs]. [Break in recording]. [13:15] You were saying about not believing in mortality. Yes. So I’ve been quite reconciled to lack of religion for many years. Was there anything in particular that caused that change in mindset? I think it was just thinking quietly to myself about things in general, and coming up with a conclusion that would have surprised me if you’d asked me [laughs]. I can’t – never thought of any other – other reasons, other than pure reason for setting my beliefs I suppose [both laugh]. Were your parents religious at all? They were religious, my mother was a Roman – brought up as a Roman Catholic, her parents were converts I think and indeed when I was born there was some doubt about my survival and she made a resolution to bring me up as a Catholic and had me baptised in the Catholic which she sort of always felt was the truer faith. However I think she lapsed somewhat [laughs] in subsequent years so I was brought up as an Anglican. And – but she did attend a sort of revivalist meeting given by Billy Graham after some years – some years we’d returned to England and both she and my father became more religious and took a lot of – quite a lot of interest in parish affairs, in fact my father was a lay reader for many years. So I think they were – that was before I’d lost my faith for the last time and told them about it, I think they were a bit disappointed but never showed it [laughs]. [15:40] © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 6 C1379/52 Track 1 You’ve mentioned a lot of different sort of schools in passing and I was just wondering, you know, which of them do you remember the most? Well probably the Dragon School was the most memorable, most recent and the one I stayed in longest perhaps, all of a year and a half [laughs]. The Kings School, I was there for nearly five years and so I remember that quite well, and I’m a member of their old boys association. That was a lovely place, in the precincts of Canterbury Cathedral and I think very good teaching and that brought me on quite a bit. I took my higher school certificate or advanced levels after only one year in the sixth form which was a bit unusual, and in fact I scored top of the upper sixth form for the remaining three years that I was at – and I was [laughs] high up in the lists. I was always beaten by somebody called Barry Lock, a very nice chap whom I met again recently, last year and – and was very good for me not to be top I think [both laugh], you know. Why do you say that? Sorry? Why do you say it was very good for you not to be top? I think one can become arrogant, I happen to know [both laugh]. Always have something more to strive for [laughs]. Anyway, when the time came to go to university I naturally applied for my father’s old college which was Merton College at Oxford and this time I went to – to Merton to sit the examinations and they awarded me an exhibition which is a sort of lesser scholarship paying only eighty pounds a year instead of 100 pounds a year. But at that time the scholarships were supplemented with a state scholarship and so my expenses and fees were paid in full, I didn’t have to borrow. And I chose the usual for year course for classical students which is Latin and Greek for the first five terms, and … philosophy and ancient history for the next seven terms. I was not a brilliant – I was confident but not a brilliant student, I got a first class honours just in the first examination and a second class which would now be called a 2:1 in the final examination in philosophy and ancient history. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Tony Hoare Page 7 C1379/52 Track 1 What had actually taken you down that route in the first place? [19:05] Well first of all in those days it was expected that bright children would study classics, and go to, you know, if you went to Oxford you’d take the classics course, but I was interested in the philosophy aspect in advance. I’d spent time in my school library already reading works of Bertrand Russell and Joad who was a sort of populariser of philosophy at that time. I was most taken by the teachings of Russell, both his philosophical teachings and his moral teachings, which weren’t by the standards of those days very moral, so I read works like Marriage and Morals, but also philosophical works. I think I probably read more of them after I’d left school than there, but my memory is reading quite a large tone [ph] called Human Knowledge, its Scope and Limits which is his – practically his last word on epistemology and philosophy. I tried reading it again recently and found it a lot less attractive [both laugh], but I have a copy and I have a resolve to read it again. Well what about Russell’s ideas did you like? Well Russell’s ideas were very reductionist and he tried to reduce complicated concepts like knowledge and ethics and morals to simplest possible terms and show how as a sort of logical structure of the subject, and I think that appealed to me a lot and still appeals to me and still really describes my own approach to research in computings as well as my interest in philosophy. I did – I did meet him, well I sort of met him once when he was the guest of a – an Oxford graduate society and they invited him to give an after dinner speech at a dinner in the Café Royal but I didn’t get very close to him. Why did you think you started actually – I mean philosophy at school, that seems quite a young age to develop that sort of interest, what actually attracted you to it in the first place? © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk