NATIONAL LIFE STORIES ARTISTS’ LIVES Wilhelmina Barns-Graham Interviewed by Tamsin Woollcombe C466/34 This transcript is copyright of the British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB 020 7412 7404 IMPORTANT Access to this interview and transcript is for private research only. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB 020 7412 7404 The British Library National Life Stories Interview Summary Sheet Title Page Ref no: C466/34/01-05 Digitised from cassette originals Collection title: Artists’ Lives Interviewee’s surname: Barns Graham Title: Interviewee’s forename: Wilhelmina Sex: female Occupation: Dates: b.1912 June 8 Dates of recording: 1994.6.6 – 1994.6.10 Location of interview: Interviewee’s home, St Ives, Cornwall Name of interviewer: Tamsyn Woollcombe Type of recorder: Marantz CP430 and two lapel mics Recording format: TDK C60 Cassettes F numbers of playback cassettes: Total no. of digitised tracks: Mono or stereo: Stereo Additional material at the British Library Copyright/Clearance: Full clearance. © The British Library Interviewer’s comments: © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 1 F4747 Side A [Wilhelmina Barns Graham talking to Tamsyn Woollcombe at her studio in St Ives on the 6th of June 1994. Tape One.] Right. I was just going to ask you a bit today about your childhood and what you remember of your parents and perhaps your grandparents if you remember them at all. But, you were born, weren't you, in St Andrews, is that right? I was, yes. Virtually to the day, I mean it's virtually your birthday this week isn't it, I mean it is your birthday this week you were saying. Yes that's right, 1912, 8th of June. Which one? 8th? Yes. Oh right. And, it always says in your notes with a catalogue, it says that you were born into a well-to-do sort of family, or...is that right, well-to-do, or landed, or...? It isn't really. I don't think it is right. I was born into a well known, connected family in St Andrews, and the West. My parents were second cousins, and...I don't know what today's words, `well-to-do' mean; I wasn't born into a working-class family, perhaps that's another way of putting it, and, much to my regret sometimes, because the artist world is mainly out of, not so much the so-called well-to-do people. I don't know what well-to-do exactly means. No I don't really actually. It sounds wealthy, and they certainly weren't wealthy. They weren't wealthy, no. No. Right. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 2 And, I was born in a crescent, a rather beautiful crescent in St Andrews, a few doors down from Jo Grimond. Oh really? Yes, who I knew well in my childhood. Oh, right. And... And we were brought up in St Andrews and I was at school in St Andrews, and we left it in 1924 because my father suffered from asthma and he had inherited land in the West, and he sold the big house that he had been brought up in and we moved to a farmhouse that he owned which he had improved and extended, and we moved there in 1924. But it was a very different climate, a soft, feminine, wet sort of landscape, countryside, whereas St Andrews is harsh and east-windy and bracing; there it was more enervating, but it suited my father better. And my grandparents on my mother's side lived in Fife, two miles out of St Andrews, in a small property which I now own, left to me by my aunt, my mother's older sister. And he inherited it, Charles Meldrum inherited it from his uncle, Henry Maitland. And, there was a farm attached to it which was sold during the war. Anyway he left it life rent to his wife, and she left it life rent to the eldest daughter who by then decided to have proper ownership and left it to me, and I am the first real owner of it. And it's small now, it's only seven acres of woodland and lawn, and a nice house, but it's called a small mansion house, which I have absolutely filled now. The spare rooms are filled with paintings; what was a drawing-room in my great-grandmother's day is my studio; and the corridors are full of paintings; the dining- room is taken over; and the outside sheds are taken over for framing. My assistant of the last twenty years is Rowan James and she has converted the two garages into workshops, and what was the sitting-room to the staff that my grandmother had, she has taken over now for indoor working on frames. So it's now very active as a workshop in the country, rather hidden away from people. A very different life to here, which has more buzz about it. I remember those grandparents very well. My grandfather was a great lover of nature, and wouldn't give me a lovely tree, autumn-leafed oak leaf off the tree, he insisted on picking one up, and I remember kicking him because I wanted the one off that tree. But he had such love, and this remained with me, a rather loving memory. And my other, my paternal grandparents I never knew, though I believe my grandfather died when I was six months old. But I was a bit of a disappointment, because my father wanted male issue and one was expected to produce male issue, and they produced two females, so I do know that I was a bit of a disappointment. However, they got their wish by the third, my brother. © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 3 And so, when the family had moved from St Andrews to, where was it exactly? To Stirlingshire. Oh right, yes. About eleven miles from Glasgow. Right, I see. You see I come from a feudal system where the inherited land, the older son inherited land and hoped for an elder son to inherit it. All that's dying now, and the land that's left is hardly worth it, it's been sold most of it, so there was quite a lot of poverty really, because my father didn't have much money, my grandfather was quite well off but with a lot of expenses and so on, and anyway, what money there was was spent on my brother for his education. My sister and I went to a private school in Edinburgh, and I had a terrible job getting to the art school. However, I'll go into that later. Mm. So, when you went to school though, you went all the way into Edinburgh daily, or did you go to boarding school? No, I went to a school in St Andrews when we were at St Andrews, called St Catherine’s, which is now the Crawford Art Centre, part of the university. Ah yes, right. And there my art ambitions began, because there was a marvellous teacher there called Miss Hebblethwaite, and she did wonderful chalk drawings on the blackboard, I remember her doing a daffodil and I think, I want to be an artist. And the children had pictures put on the walls aged 5, aged 6, aged 10 sort of thing, and, if only I could get one up. And one weekend I did a copy of the little figure on the marmalade jar, I don't know if you know it, it was a little - one's not supposed to use the... Golliwog are you going to say? Not supposed to use that word nowadays, I was ticked off for that. I don't know what word to use, but it's a little black figure, I think in a red jacket and blue trousers. Anyway I copied it © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 4 but I reversed the, I made him have a blue jacket and red trousers, I reversed the colours you see. And to my amazement, that got on the wall, `Willy Barns Graham, aged 8 years'. I've still got it. And that clinched it, I am going to be an artist. Then the other incident in my childhood was on a train when we were travelling from St Andrews to Glasgow, and my father was in the train, maybe it was the move, but my father was there and my mother, I can't remember the other two but they must have been all there. And sitting beside me was a tall lady, and I was drawing with chalk into a book of triangles and squares, secret rooms really, I didn't want anyone to see them. And I was constantly doing this. And she asked me what I was doing, and I was livid with her, and my parents just shrugged their shoulders, said, `Oh she's always doing that sort of thing'. And it was chalk, blue outlines and I coloured the interiors. But I wished now I had known who that was, because she took an interest in me, told us that she was on the staff at the Glasgow School of Art. And I can't have been, 1924 I would only be about... 12. 12 years old, yes. Anyway I was small and young. It might have been before that, it might not have been that date. But, we moved, and then we were brought up by two governesses from the PNEU system. What's that? Which is the Parents National Educational Union. It sprung from Ambleside, I don't know if it's still in existence. The advantage of it was that you were taught all sorts of subjects, general, but you lost in specialising, and I was very bad at French and I wanted to be able to, because...you did too many subjects. But the most valuable thing for me that came out of that was their motto, which I often use and pass on to other people who are in distress of any kind, `I am, I can, I ought, I will'. And if I am in anxiety I go to the mirror and just look at that face and say, `I am all right, I can be all right, I will be all right, I ought to be all right,' and it really works miracles. You can also put any word you like after it. Yes, that sounds a very good idea. And it was very good, `I am, I can, I ought, I will'. But then I went to a school in Edinburgh, a boarding school, my sister and I went, St Hildas in Liberton; it doesn't exist now I don't think. Was it a kind of Miss Jean Brodie kind of academy sort of school? © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 5 No, I can't... I was often in trouble there, I seemed to get into trouble wherever I went, I was in a bit of trouble there. I had a great gift, which I still have, of analysing handwriting, and I can tell all sorts of things from the vibration of handwriting, a sort of psychic thing, and I did one or two of the staff and it got me into trouble. I've stopped doing it because I've had too many funny experiences out of it. During the war somebody in hiding, I almost described where this person was, and there was a terrible shriek in the room and the letter snatched from me. And so I decided it was best to cool it. My childhood was difficult because there were three of us, and three, always two and two, my brother and sister were great pals, my sister and I were great pals, and she died when she was 31 leaving three children. And, I got on very well with both parents on the whole, excepting that I wanted to go to an art school and they were dead against it, because as my father used the old-fashioned word, `You're not a genius'. I so detest that word, because I have a great belief that if you've got a little talent and with hard work you can get quite a long way, and I believed that I had a little talent and if I worked hard I would get a little way anyway. So, what annoyed me was, they sent me to a college of domestic science for six months in Edinburgh, and that must have cost something, being a boarder, but it made me worse. I used to run off to the library and read art books in all the intervals I could. I eventually did get to the art school when I was 19. This is Edinburgh College of Art? Edinburgh College of Art. An aunt of mine said she would help me for a year, so I went for a year, and there was constantly a panic about it, that, what would happen at the end of the year? Now I was terribly lucky, I won a maintenance scholarship on merit of work which settled the next two years, because they increased it for a second year, and nobody could interfere with that. I think my father probably had some genuine reasons for giving me such terrible opposition. I wasn't very robust, and he didn't think it was a life for a woman, and I think also he was testing me, and he would test me to the full so that if I really wanted to do it he wouldn't stand in the way. But it was very bad for one's health really. And fortunately I did get to one; the college was quite well off with little scholarships and I got some of those, which many of the students got. So, what...? When I went down to Cornwall on the recommendation of Principal, Wellington, this was nearly wartime by now, it was partly because I couldn't take up a scholarship which I had been awarded, a travelling scholarship. Again I had been ill and they kept it apart for me and they couldn't hold on to it any longer so they thought, send her to Cornwall. And he knew © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 6 Barbara Hepworth and Ben Nicholson, and thought it would be a good place for me. And also one of the Edinburgh College of Art students was down there, married to Adrian Stokes. Margaret Mellis. Margaret Mellis. And so it seemed quite a reasonable thing to do. And my father was still in great opposition, and my mother probably not so much, simply that, I don't think she had much say in it. She probably thought it was an awful nuisance that I kept on about this. And, I won my father in the end, but I was 30 by now, by painting a portrait from a photograph of my brother, and it has a strong likeness. I squared it off and borrowed one of the Royal Artillery officers' hats down here and wore it in front of a mirror, and I knew my colouring was similar. And when my father saw it, this rather handsome six-foot-two arrogant man, to my horror I saw the tears run down his face, and he said, `Who am I to stand against you? God means you to be an artist.' Because my brother was out in Egypt at the time. And, so I won my father but not on the right reasons, because, it is an academic painting from a photograph. And when I had to take my work up to the college of art after six months down here, I didn't care for it down here very much at that time, and he saw the work, he said, `What's that?' Because I withdrew the portrait, and I said, `Oh that's nothing.' But I couldn't explain it was very much something, it had altered my life with my parents. But, then he said to me, `Oh go on and give it a good try.' And that's nearly 53 years ago, just about, 52 years ago. And, St Ives is a place you can't help coming back to. Mm. But before we get on to St Ives, which is where we are now, can I just go back a bit again to your childhood and things. I mean how were you...what did the household consist of? Did you have people to look after you when you were small children? Yes. And cooks and things, or what? We had a cook and a maid and a nurse. And when you say nurse, is that the equivalent of a sort of nanny kind of thing? Nanny, yes, yes. That looked after you three children? © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk Wilhelmina Barns Graham C466/34/01 F4747 Side A Page 7 Took us for walks, looked after us, dressed us. Yes, I think we saw our parents in the evenings. Slightly vague but I remember the nannies well, there was one wonderful one. And I remember seeing a Zeppelin in the sky at St Andrews, it was a nanny that pointed it out. But they could also do one harm, because I remember seeing a dead rabbit on a pathway, and she said, `You'll be like that one day.' And I think it's an incredible thing to say to a child. Mm, rather sort of...yes. Sounds rather Victorian, kind of... And then she pointed out to me that there wasn't a son in the family, and I think that was damaging. Was that before your brother had appeared? What? It was another nurse. Was that before your brother appeared or...? No no, we were very close in age, there was only a year between my sister and myself, almost to the day, 8th of June, 18th of June, and she was exactly the same age as Jo Grimond and in fact we shared a nurse at one time between the Grimond family and us, my mother tells me. And, my brother was a year and a half younger than that. So it was really one, two, three, because in no time he was the tallest, and I was the smallest, and we looked like triplets and we were dressed alike. And in the house did you have paintings on the wall in your parents' house, did they collect anything in particular, or...? No, but they inherited the work of an artist in our St Andrews house, and I remember...yes, now you've hit a point, because those paintings were done by a man called Cadogan. But off their music room, there was a big music room there, a wonderful room which my father had a harmonium and my mother a piano, they were very musical and played together, there was a room off it that I was hardly ever allowed into, and it was full of junk, it was Mr Cadogan's things, and my father was in there one day and there was a jar full of big oil brushes. And I remember going up and caressing them, thinking these were the most wonderful things I had ever seen, and my father turned round and said, `Don't you touch these'. He was perfectly right, he was guardian of these things. And there was another bowl full of great big oil brushes, hog's hair oil brushes, huge ones, or seemed huge to a child, very clean, some of © The British Library Board http://sounds.bl.uk