r e n n a c S m a C y b d e n n a ~ c ~ ~ S -~ V\ \I\ ' .. ~ ~ \ ' r e n n a c S m • a C OLIVIER MESSIAEN y b d e Music and Color n n a c Conversations with Claude Samuel S Translated by E. Thomas Glasow ,, 1il1ii1i~j~~~1iifi .~~ AMADEUS PRESS Reinhard G. Pauly, General Editor Portland, Oregon ~iihunivcr,itcit k Utrecht LETTERE ·~ L BlBLIOTHEEK 1=------ r e n n a c S m a C ________ Contents ________ y b d Frontispiece engraving of St. Francis receiving the stigmata, "Amor reciprocus e Dei et D. Francisci [Mutual love of God and blessed Francis)" by J. Ch. Smiseck, Preface by Claude Samuel 9 n n Courtesy Museo Francescano, Rome. _Musical Expectations 13 a Endpoper illustratio" by Carla Magazino _Landmarks 19 c S _From Technique to Emotion 39 Copyright e 1986 as Olivier MessiaeJ1: Musique et couleur by Editions Belfond, Paris. _Of Sounds and Colors 61 Translation copyright e 1994 by Amadeus Press _In Quest of Rhythm 67 (an imprint of Timber Press, Inc.) _My Birds 85 All rights reserved. _The Orient Experience 99 ISBN 0-931340-67-5 _Trajectory 109 Printed in Singapore _An American Paradise 155 AMADEUS PRESS _Passing the Torch 175 The Haseltine Building _Contradictions of the Century 191 133 S.W. Second Ave. Suite 450 Portland, Oregon 97204-3527, U.SA. __ Saint Francis of Assisi 207 _Circling the Globe 251 Unry fll C..-C.u' t I m-PubMcmdoa Data In Memoriam: Olivier Messiaen by Claude Samuel 261 Meaiml. OUvier, 1908-199'2 Selected List of Works 263 (~et c:ouJear, &Jallsbl Discography 269 Music 1D11 co1or : comena00m wtdl Olude Slllluel I OlMer '*-'-; ll'lmlalllld by B. 1brxa11 O'->w. Selected Bibliography 283 p. cm. Index of Names 289 Dbwti1Jlb7· p. ISBN ~931340-67·' Index of Works 295 1. Meaim1. OIJvier, 1908-199'2-lallerVieWI. 2. Composen-Fmioe- -lalel riews. L Sllllud, Caadc. ll. Tide. M1A10~9'A3 1994 93-28281 Photographs follow page 160 780'92-«20 ClP MN 5 r e n n a c S m a C y b d e n n a c S Dedicated to the memory of Olivier Messiaen 1908-1992 r e n n a c S m a C y b d e n n a c Olivier Messiaen had just attended the two premieres-first private S (at the Sainte-Chapelle), then official (at Chartres Cathedral, in the presence of General de Gaulle)-of Et exspecto resurrectionem mor tuorum. He was immersed in the composition of the monumental La Transfiguration de Notre Seigneur Jesus-Christ, which the Gulbenkian Foundation had commissioned of him, making use of what little free time his teaching at the Paris Conservatory, rue de Madrid, left him. In Royan, he had recently chaired the jury of the first-piano competi tion to which he had lent his name, and whose renaissance young artists from around the world still await. It was at this time that Olivier Messiaen, at the invitation of Pierre Belfond, agreed to take part in a more abstract exercise: a game of question-and-answer before the microphone, with a view to publication. I knew Messiaen well enough to kno:w that he did nothing lightly, that his observations were always well founded, that he was more voluble about what he did know-which is to say, his creative work, the musical currents of our time, and the open-minded teaching that he still practiced-than about what he did not: namely, the superficial trends of our society. I discovered that his scrupulous professional conscience was a match for the gift of meticulous concentration he brought to the project. There was no adverb, no comma in that first book that he did not care fully weigh. Hence, its 236 pages-published in small format-were from then on accepted as gospel by those who wanted to know and repeat, write or comment upon Olivier Messiaen's truths. Eventually the book was translated into English and Japanese as well. After attending the premiere of his Transfiguration in Lisbon, Messiaen renewed his ties to the organ and piano with Meditations sur le mystere de la Sainte Trinite and Fauvette des jardins-the latter piece devoted entirely to one bird. He next orchestrated the magical colors of star-canopied Bryce Canyon and Zion Park for Des canyons aux etoiles, then plunged into the most unpredictable and demanding of 9 r e ber 1983, the musical world discovered-not wunout astonishment no ctoucn, vu• "" ...... "'"''-"" '1"'""' •a11o "101e-u11 v-1er M essi. aen. . - n in an opera house whose usual fare ranged from the trivial to th tainS the sam. e stan d ar.d s, thh"e sam. e fervor, and occa s1. ona 11 y them saamme n vul~ar: drama~ of murd~rs, .betray~ls, and tawdry _love affairs-tha~ relucta. ndce"f fm expressing is opinions of others . H e mam. tam. s the a divine grace might also find its way mto the repertoire. To say that th same m 1 erenc·e , .t oo, .t oward celebrations of fam e _ ac k nowledg Sc traditional opera public got the message would be going too far bu~ ments o f· appr·e cdia ti·o n givbein to those concerned with sue h t h_m· gs-- m which his att1tu e is una e to mask. Having proudl d" ·d d thousands of music lovers were initiated, which helped to assure't hat . . Y 1v1 e and the work would eventually reach dyed-in-the-wool bel canto Patie·n tly reco· nstructed andd in·v estigated time in all 1·ts d.1 mens1. ons Ca Olivier Messiaen transcen s hme. He has ushered in sil t ' audiences. Even in its television broadcast, Saint Fran~ois-a story that tions (or revoI u tt. ons s1.1 e nt1 y ) and takes them on witheonu t rfeevaor 1uo -f y holds its tremendous appeal-triumphed, becoming a milestone in b consequence. the career of a composer whom the public, naturally slower in d Just as for inspiration Messiaen reaches far beyond thos _ forming an opinion than the international experts, had taken a rather · · d · t•tut. h · e spe e long time to discover. ciabze ms i io•t ns w ere· m us,i cal works and legacies are meas ured n by the compI exi y-or naivete-of pedantic edicts, I would like to n During the eight years of its composition, Saint Fran~ois had been head for ~he open sea, beyond t~e pollution of civilization, and give a Olivier Messiaen's only concern, his every day's task, his every c him the title (though he may obJect to my having borrowed it fro S night's anguish-and the result had to be what is called a Schumann) of Bird Prophet. m "testament"- so much so that his admirers, those who eagerly looked forward to his latest works, wondered what the post-Saint Claude Samuel Fran~ois future might hold. They may be reassured. And all the better Paris that Messiaen, far from hiding behind the honors heaped before him, agreed to add some chapters to this book, tracing eighteen years of nonstop work, talking about journeys and new reflections, a sign-if one be needed-of a vitality that is as private and discreet as it is unshakable. A bit of touching up allowed the composer of the Turangalfla symphonie to review his confidences, to clarify some details, and to reconsider judgments in the light of recent musical developments, inspired, after the gradual demise of the serial system in the late 1960s, by computer science. But the essence, the broad outline, is preserved almost verbatim. There are the musical resources of his ornithological quest; his mysterious resonances with the world of color-so dear to my interlocutor that he decided to incorporate it in the book's title; the implications of rediscovered rhythms (Greek, Hindu); but more important, the ultimate driving force behind his creations-his indomitable religious faith. His discourse on any and all of these topics remains a model of consistency, which (whatever may be said about the value of "revised thoughts") is the mark of a great mind. The new chapters-nearly half the book-do not con tradict the major convictions and ideas embodied in other scores; his m~d~ of ex~~ession is refined without the slightest deviation artistic or spmtual-from the main path. 11 10 ____ Musical Expectations ------ Claude Samuel: You frequently mention the influence of your mother on the de~;lopment of your personality, notably, the prophetic nature of Lame en bourg~o.n [The Burgeoning Soul], the collection of poems your mother, Cecile Sauvage, wrote while she was carrying you. Olivier Messiaen: Yes, I have always believed and I believe more and more in the determining role of that maternal collection. Salvador Dali, an eccentric by nature, often spoke of his "intrauterine memories:' Without going as far as that, I still believe a child exists from the moment of conception. That is why the Catholic Church is so violently opposed to abortion, which it considers a crime. Because from the very first moment of conception, the child is himself-the future artist or future murderer, the future factory worker or future president of the republic. C.S. Such determinism is frightening! 0.M. Consider the beehive, with some bees destined to be workers, drones that exist to assure fertilization, and the queen, whose only activity is laying eggs. There, too, determinism is frightening! C.S. You11 permit me to give more credence to the free will of men than to that of bees. 0.M. Granted, man has free will and is capable of modifying his per 1 sonality. I've forgotten which saint said, ''There were two of uff t 1 threw the other one out the window:' Nevertheless, the perso:a Y of the child is formed in the womb. There is a permanent e.xc ange between mother and child and the latter can pick up exbtenohr emthoe- ' · ·d the worn w en ti 1 ons. You know, some children move 1ns e 13 Scanned by CamScanner r e . ·t, s music and react differently, depending on the n mot h. e r I1s "n. b1e0r ftJr example one of my wt' f e ' s m·e ces, w h ose ba by Israel recently and, at the end of a conversation with a great scientist, I n music. 1 rcmcm ' ' . h l' d ' timidly admitted my admiration for H. G. Wells's The Time Machine. a . as born kicked whenever its mot er 1stene to con. tbl c'mfo proer a11 ry w m usic ' w/h ereas Bach soothed 1· t. A ds1· · m 1·1 ar p h enomenfo n is Hpiee cree,p alinedd , W''Deollns 'ta nbtei caifpraatiedd t od sisacyo ivt,e brieecsa uthsaet thscaite bnocoe ki sis oan mlya sntoewr Sc mentioned in the Bible, in fact: the extraor .1~aryE ~o~enht o the beginning to understand:' m Visitation. Mary, pregnant with Christ, pays a v1s1t to tza et , who is a pregnant with John the Baptist. Now, at the moment. Mary ~reet~ her, c.s. But it's the poetic message of science fiction that touches you. C Elizabeth's child shifts position and genuflect.s.1:'f e !~ baphzed m his y Let's call it its poetic intuition. mother's womb. Then Elizabeth says to the V1rgm, Blessed art thou b among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." That's the o.M.I like that expression: indeed, it is poetic intuition. While expect d origin of one of the most well-known prayers. ing me, my mother had poetic intuitions. That's why she said, without e n knowing I would become a composer, "Je souffre d'un lointain musical n C.S. It's a symbolic gesture. que (ignore [I suffer from an unknown, distant music)." And also, a "Voici tout l'Orient qui chante dans mon etre-avec ses oiseaux bleus, avec c S o.M. No, it's not a question of symbolism. The child really moved. It's ses papillons [All the Orient is singing here within me-with its blue a unique case, but he was truly baptized in his mother's womb. That's birds, with its butterflies]:' How could she know that I would be an why Christ said, "Among those born of women, none is greater than ornithologist and that Japan would fascinate me? Finally, in an era John the Baptist." In other words, an exchange occurs between when predicting a child's sex in utero was impossible, she always mother and child during pregnancy; and the mother, in turn, is trans addressed me as a boy. This is quite an example of premonition. She formed. The moment of birth is tragic-tragic for the child whose first died before I actually embarked on a musical career, but I'm con mouthful of air is brutal, painful-but also tragic for the mother, who vinced that I owe my career to that musical expectancy. It was my loses a part of herself after the longest and most intimate of human mother who pointed me, before I was born, toward nature and art. relationships. All these things, so difficult to express, were communi She did it in poetic terms; being a composer, I translated them later cated by my mother in the book of verse entitled L' ame en bourgeon. into music. She said them magnificently, with well-chosen imagery, a very keen I would like to read to you four lines by Cecile Sauvage that sense of natural beauty, and, above all, exquisite modesty. Certainly, strikingly describe the envelopment of the child by the mother: many women have written poems, but none has spoken of the fe suis autour de toi comme l'amande verte mystery of giving birth. However, some of them-from Sappho to Qui ferme son ecrin sur l'amandon laiteux, Anna de Noailles, from Louise Labe to Marceline Desbordes Comme la cosse molle aux replis cotonneux Valmore-were wonderful writers, as were the novelists Madame de Dant la graine enfantine et sayeuse est couverte. La Fayette, who evokes the pleasures of love, and Emily Bronte, who describes its torments. Then there is the one I consider the greatest, I am around you like the green almond Madame d'Aulnoy, author of numerous fairy tales in which love and Which wraps its casing 'round the milky nut, Like the soft pod with cottony folds the fantastic are combined in a fr~nzy of invention that foreshadows Covering the silky, infant seed. surrealism. Certain poems of Eluard and films of Jean Cocteau wouldn't have existed without these stories by Madame d'Aulnoy,La That poem, whose imagery is so appropriate, was published in 1909, chatte blanche, Le Prince Mouton, and La Princesse Carpillon. Though one year after I was born. My mother wrote essentially two books, amazing for their time, they unfortunately have been forgotten. both published by Mercure de France. The first is entitled Tandis que la terre tourne [As the World Turns]-and L'ame en bourgeon is its last C.S. Do they interest you specifically because they foreshadow chapter. The second, Le vallon [The Valley], is more melancholy; it surrealism? describes birds and flowers, but no longer the sun of Provence which my mother loved so much and never got over having left. Then a 0.M. Perhaps. I'm partial to the fantastic side of surrealism to the sort great misfortune occurred: between 1914 and 1918, my mother of science fiction that goes beyond reality and science its~lf. I was in 14 15 r . t between earth and heaven, that presented charac e the Gospels, the Epistles of Saint Paul, the Apocalypse, and the Bible wrote an ehp1cF, .set World War· the soldiers, but also the corpses Whil - n ters from t e irs · h b ' e a whole. I've consulted modern theologians: the Belgian Dom n f ddess Hemerocalle the title c aracter, o served the ~ lumba Marmion; Romano Guardini, who, despite his name, was a a :~~s ~t !~s a dr~a in verse, th~ee or four hundred pages long, but G~rman; Thomas Merton, an American of French origin; and the c ~e ma~uscript disappeared following several moves from one house S fn eatest contemporary theologian, who writes as well in German as m to another- French-Hans Urs von Balthasar. a c.s. Did your mother consider herself a femme de lettres? c.s. Did you ever think of joining an order? C y O.M. No, she didn't tell anyone about what s~e w_as _writing. She was o.M. I've thought about it, but I know I would have made a very bad b modest and carried a sort of hidden despair within h~r-pe~haps monk. I wouldn't have endured the rules of monastic life-getting up d because she was to die young, perhaps because she wasn ta believer. in the middle of the night to pray. I would have been incapable of e n In fact, she was unhappy. interrupting my musical work when the bell rang for Offices. I think n monastic life requires a special calling. Some are destined for it; a c.s. Your parents weren't believers, yet you always insist that you others not. But one can become a saint under very different circum c were born a believer. Can you remember the moment when your stances. A king or a president can be a saint. Take Saint Louis, for S religious faith was consciously revealed to you? example! O.M. It's true that my parents were not believ~rs. T?at d?es~'t mean c.s. Some who were called to religious vocations were troubled by they weren't worried about the beyond. On this subject, Id hke to tell periods of doubt. And you? you about Andre Malraux, whom I knew well: >:ou know that he co~­ sidered himself an atheist or, to use the less radical term, an agnostic, o.M. No, I've never had doubts, but I recognize that Christians and but every time we met, he'd converse about death and w~t follows it, even saints have known doubt. and he even commissioned a work from me on the subject of death, which became a work on the Resurrection: Et exspedo resurredionem c.s. What do you think of Pascal's "wager"? mortuorum. O.M. It's only a theory. The word "fire" written at the beginning of his c.s. Do you mean that nonbelievers are worried? Memorial overwhelms me much more. We're surrounded by innumerable unexplainable events that reveal an invisible power, O.M. I will say that they're believers in their own way. They're greater than ours, to which we must bow. "reverse believers." C.S. I suppose scientific explanations annoy you. c.s. But you haven't answered my question: how did you become 0.M. Sometimes scientific explanations are magnificent, and they're aware of your own religious faith? always very useful, but above all they permit us to realize how ignorant we really are. The further science advances, the more it O.M. I didn't have a sudden conversion, as did Blaise Pascal or Paul reveals the extent of what remains in darkness. Any scientist will Claudel. You know, Claudel had a sudden flash of inspiration, one agree with that. day in Paris's Notre Dame, and it was in the middle of the night that Blaise Pascal had his extraordinary revelation and wrote the word C.S. It was often thought, particularly in the nineteenth century, that "fire" at the start of his Memorial. For me, there was nothing of the religious faith and scientific progress were irreconcilable. kind. I've always been a believer, pure and simple. tittle by little 1:v~ read books that have strengthened my faith, and I've stud1e 0.M. Yes, and there is even a man who tried, unsuccessfully, to recon theology, on my own, through my personal reading. I've read alm~st cile those two notions: Teilhard de Chardin. God gave us a brain so all the Summa Theologica of Saint Thomas Aquinas. I've also studied 17 16 r e n that we can use ii to increase our knowledge, to sharpen our thought n a but as long as we live on earth, we will never possess the tools for per~ c feet knowledge. S m c.s. Docs interplanetary travel interest you? a C o.M. Yes, It's phenomenal, but I believe 111 accomplish it naturally y after my death, when distance and matter no longer hold sway over b me. d Landmarks _______ e n n a c c.s. Why do you compose? What does the act of creating mean to S you? o.M. I have often been asked that question, and I find it rather use less; it seems to me, really, that a composer writes music because he has to, because he has a gift for it. Certainly since childhood I've been irresistibly and powerfully drawn to a musical vocation, to which my parents were not at all opposed, being artists themselves. My father, Pierre Messiaen, was an English teacher: he left a critical translation of the complete works of Shakespeare. My mother, Cecile Sauvage, was the greatest poet of motherhood. Her book L'ame en bourgeon influenced my entire future. C.S. Was it your mother who induced you to study music? O.M. No, I taught myself to play the piano during the First World War, when I was in Grenoble; I then attempted to compose. I've preserved a piano piece from those days called La dame de Shalott, after Tennyson's poem. It's obviously a very childish piece; the undefined style and naive form make me laugh- C.S. Was the work published? O.M. No. It's just a little souvenir- C.S. If you've been composing since then, it's obviously because an instinct drove you to do so- 0.M. Certainly, and that's what I cannot explain. That's why the ques tion ''Why do you write music?" seems useless to me. 19 18