History of Modern Biomedicine Research Group School of History, Queen Mary University of London Mile End Road, London E1 4NS website: www.histmodbiomed.org AUDIO INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Macfarlane, Alison: transcript of an audio interview (23-May-2016) Interviewers: Adam Wilkinson, Christopher Derrett Transcriber: Debra Gee Editor: Tilli Tansey Date of publication: 24-May-2017 Date and place of interview: 23-May-2016; Queen Mary University of London Publisher: Queen Mary University of London Collection: History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) Reference: e2017188 Number of pages: 14 DOI: 10.17636/01023309 Acknowledgments: The technical support of Mr Alan Yabsley is gratefully acknowledged. The History of Modern Biomedicine Research Group is funded by the Wellcome Trust, which is a registered charity (no. 210183). The current interview has been funded by the Wellcome Trust Strategic Award entitled “Makers of modern biomedicine: testimonies and legacy” (2012-2017; awarded to Professor Tilli Tansey). Citation: Wilkinson A, Derrett C (intvrs); Tansey E M (ed) (2017) Macfarlane, Alison: transcript of an audio interview (23-May-2016). History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection), item e2017188. London: Queen Mary University of London. Note: Audio interviews are conducted following standard oral history methodology, and have received ethical approval (reference QMREC 0642). Related material has been deposited in the Wellcome Library. © The Trustee of the Wellcome Trust, London, 2017 History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 2 Macfarlane, Alison: transcript of an audio interview (23-May-2016)* Biography: Professor Alison Macfarlane Dip Stat CStat FFPH (b. 1942) studied mathematics at Oxford (1961-1964), and took a Postgraduate Diploma in Statistics at University College London (1964-1965). She worked as a statistician in agricultural research at Rothamsted Experimental Station (1965-1967); on transportation studies for Hertfordshire County Council (1967-1970); the Planning and Transport Research and Computation Company (1970); at the Centre for Urban Studies, University College London (1970-1971), and as a programmer at the National Environmental Research Council’s Experimental Cartography Unit (1971-1972). She joined the MRC Air Pollution Unit in 1972, and worked on, and developed, the daily mortality study initiated by Robert Waller and A E Martin. She left the Unit in 1975, and since then her work as an epidemiologist and statistician at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (1975-1978), the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit in Oxford (1978- 2001), and City University London, has focused on maternal and child health statistics and evaluation of perinatal care. She has been Professor of Perinatal Health at City University London since 2001, part-time since 2011. AW: Adam Wilkinson CD: Christopher Derrett AM: Alison Macfarlane --------- AW: Alison, can we start by going back to the mid-1940s and can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and family background, please? AM: Right, well I was born in Watford and the reason that I was born at all in 1942 was that my father was in a reserved occupation, which was directly relevant to this because he worked in what was then called fuel efficiency and his background was in chemistry and he went and did a PhD in Berkeley in California on a Commonwealth Fund Fellowship. And a chemist I met after he died said, ‘Oh, yes, I knew Angus Macfarlane.’ I hoped he would say ‘Brilliant chemist,’ but he said, ‘He knew where to find the bathtub gin.’ This was during prohibition, and he came from a family in Weston Super Mare that was in the trade. So he would know where to find the bathtub gin. Anyway he came back and worked at the Fuel Research Station at Greenwich on this thing called the Fischer Tropsch process. It was going to turn coal into oil. And then he worked, I don’t remember which way round, certainly when the war broke out he was working for the London Midland Railway on fuel efficiency, in other words, how to make the coal go further, because that’s what they were more interested in. And then for Ministry of Fuel and Power and the London Midland Railway evacuated its premises out to a mansion called The Grove in Watford, which is now a very deluxe place, and that’s why, my parents moved out to Watford but then my father commuted back to Euston Square. Anyway, so I don’t remember much of the war except I do remember apparently what’s now Watford Tech * Interview conducted by Mr Adam Wilkinson and Dr Christopher Derrett, for the History of Modern Biomedicine Research Group, 23 May 2016, in the School of History, Queen Mary University of London. Transcribed by Mrs Debra Gee, and edited by Professor Tilli Tansey. History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 3 kept sailors across the road, and being a child I’d wave at the sailors. And I remember a whole lot of troops and tanks going past in 1944 and they were obviously going to the Normandy landings, but mostly I do remember my father swearing over the domestic grate, which he wasn’t nearly as competent about as he was advising other people how to burn things. [Laughter]. And my mother singing a song called, ‘You pull a damper in, you pull a damper out, the smoke goes up the chimney just the same.’ Look at my fuel efficiency expert. So there was that aspect of it. When the war ended he went back to Ministry of Fuel and Power. Oh, that’s the other thing, I was very impressed because he used to occasionally ride in the engine to see how the stokers stoked [laughs]. AW: Did you ride in the engine yourself? AM: No, I was very jealous because I thought that was great. Yes, and he wrote a book called The Stokers Manual or Boiler Operator’s Handbook [laughs]. And I was impressed by that. But it was while he was in a train in Coventry station on the night it was bombed but fortunately my mother’s parents lived down the road so he just got out and walked down to stay with them. None of that’s directly relevant but anyway that’s the idea of burning coal efficiently, of something I grew up with. Then he was a protégé of Harold Hartley, and I’ve a copy of the memorial lecture that Harold Hartley wrote. Somehow he ended up with a complete change of career going to Washington for five years to be scientific attaché at the British embassy, and at the British Commonwealth Scientific Office where they were exchanging scientific information ranging from nuclear secrets to how to make lots of different coloured ice creams. And one of the things that would happen is a delegation would come over and my parents would have parties to introduce them to the right people and we would put on our party dresses and pass round the peanuts and then retire to the kitchen and eat them [laughs]. And then we came back in 1954, so, it’s relevant to that that I had most of my primary school education in the States, which was very different from primary school education in England in the early 50s. And it was very much more project-orientated and you got to learn a musical instrument when you were 8. So that was all very nice. And then we came back to England and the culture shock of Watford Girls’ Grammar School, where you couldn’t play in the junior orchestra until you were in the second year and it was all very regimented. He came back because his section at the Ministry of Fuel and Power was being turned into a quango called National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service. And the thing is still there. It’s called NIFES Consulting now, and it’s a huge consultancy. They have on their website pictures of early vehicles that they went out in doing measurements. And I did try to find out if anyone had done anything about the history of the company. I’ve got pictures of the then very small staff coming to our house for staff parties. So I was familiar with those people at that point. And then Harold Hartley did some work for, was it NATO? I forget. Anyway it was a report on improving the effectiveness of Western science which involved us, involved him [my father], going to Paris quite a lot. And then there was of money lodged in the Channel islands and we went on a couple of very nice holidays on the strength of it but didn’t do him too much good because he had a heart attack and died at the age of 51. So that was in 1961, just before I went to university. So, and he always wanted me to be a scientist and was upset that I didn’t do chemistry [laughs]. AW: Looking at your CV, when we look at your O levels, going into A level, I think it’s fair to say you had a gift for mathematics. And you obviously enjoyed it. AM: Yes, but actually the interesting thing was that my favourite subject was History and the teacher that taught us was very orientated towards social history and in those days you couldn’t combine arts and sciences A levels. And why couldn’t I do two maths and history A level, why couldn’t I do maths, history and music. Of course the school had conspired with my parents to want me to go to Oxford or Cambridge, preferably Oxford, because that’s where they’d been and so certain choices were made. These days with all the development of historical demography, two maths and history would have been a lovely combination but not in those days. So I did two maths and physics and I did maths because it was my best subject and also I looked at what they were doing for history for A level with a special subject of Louis XIV and I decided that probably wasn’t the history I wanted to do. And furthermore, when I, by the time my father died, I’d History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 4 achieved their ambition and got into Oxford and in my year at St Hilda’s was Sheila Rowbottom who has written about how she didn’t enjoy the history she did at Oxford, but I’ve enjoyed the history she wrote, so that was probably a good choice. CD: Do you think it was your father rather than the school that influenced you getting interested in, and being good at, mathematics? AM: It’s difficult to tell. No, it wasn’t my father because my father wanted me to do chemistry but, even though a high achieving girls’ grammar school in the era of 11+, science teaching in the Sixth Form was a problem. Then one of the things of that era, but I think also now, is that co-ed schools have better science teachers but girls were less likely to want to do sciences in a co-ed school, whereas in a girls school in the Science Sixth we were a minority but we got through seven different maths teachers in A Level pure maths and two in A level applied maths. And the school sent us to Watford Tech to do A level physics because they weren’t very confident in the physics teacher. It was slightly embarrassing because she also ran the school girl guides and her idea of a guide camp was going to some nice part of the country and going on nice walks rather than sitting around saluting the flag [laughs]. So I knew her quite well and I knew she was very upset about this but anyway we went to the Tech to do A level physics together with two girls from the Girls Masonic School, which was run like a prison in those days and between getting off the bus and getting to the Tech they had to do shopping for half the school because they weren’t allowed out shopping [laughs]. CD: And your mum was an Oxford graduate, you said? Was she a scientist? AM: Yes, she did French. And she taught French before the War and then she got married in 1938 when, in 1938 women had to resign their jobs on marriage because that was thought to be one way of combatting unemployment. And then when they moved to Watford, once the war started, any women without children were required to work, so she went and did a First Aid course and had to pass an exam. And she hadn’t done an exam for a bit and got quite nervous on this First Aid course and once she’d passed the First Aid course the teachers of the boys’ Grammar School were being called up to go to the war and there was a job advertised teaching French, so she taught French at Watford Boys’ Grammar School. But she’d been to Germany, after university she’d been to Germany, went to Munich to learn German, so she also taught English to German refugees and her star pupil was Uwe Kitzinger, who I have quite recently met him at a memorial event for Sheila [Kitzinger]. And when we came back from the States he was the one who was known as the Professor of Harvard but then she became more known. Anyway he came as a German refugee and she taught him English, though he doesn’t remember it. I’m not surprised. And then another of her pupils who achieved fame was Terry Thomas (the actor) but he wasn’t very interested in French at all. And having women teachers in this very traditional boys’ grammar school, she was, as soon as she was pregnant, she was told she’d better resign before it became too visible because it might corrupt the boys. CD: That’s fantastic. AM: And she didn’t actually, she didn’t go back to work afterwards. She did do private tutoring. Now, when we were in the States, we were there for five years and as we were getting towards the end of primary school and beginning of secondary school, we, our parents and some friends of theirs, were worried about us getting behind, so we had classes on Saturday mornings, and my mother taught us the beginnings of French and our friends’ father taught us the beginnings of algebra. And our friends’ father’s name was Wilfred Mann, and he was a scientist who had been in Washington, come back to England, and then he went back to work in the physics lab at the National Bureau of Standards and had become an American citizen. And wasn’t I gobsmacked in the early 1980s, when Blunt was discovered to have been the fourth man in the Burgess and Maclean affair, and then I remember driving, when I was working at Oxford, I was driving to Oxford and then heard on the radio ‘There is a suspected fifth man in the Burgess and Maclean affair, Dr Wilfred Mann. We’re interviewing him in his laboratory.’ [Laughs]. So the whole, the whole thing about my sister two years younger than me and I, were fascinated by this whole thing. He wrote a book to clear his name, which made us more suspicious than ever. History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 5 But one of the things I remember as a child, was that his wife Miriam, my friends’ mother, had this red handbag which had been given to her by Maria Pontecorvo. She always said, ‘My friend Maria Pontecorvo gave me this handbag,’ because they’d been together at Deep River, and people said, ‘You’d better be careful, someone might pin something on you one of these days.’ It was after the time that Pontecorvo had gone to Russia. And, of course, I remembered that when all this happened. So we avidly read all the books about that and there seems to be another rash of them and the thing that actually, this is completely irrelevant to this, the thing that comes out is there were some like Burgess who was obviously a complete slob from beginning to end, and others were distinguished scientists like Pontecorvo. That was a real tragedy with him, and with Wilfred who had a very distinguished scientific career, whatever else he might or might not have done. The latest Burgess thing suggested that he might have done things. But that was an interesting background. But the office my father worked in there was a whole nuclear section and clearly there was exchange between Commonwealth countries particularly Canada and us, of atomic secrets. But Wilfred was no longer there, he was at National Bureau of Standards. Anyway that was another thing. Having a primary school education which was very much, you did projects and you found out about X, which was obviously what they have done in primary schools in England since, until the National Curriculum has tightened them up again. But it didn’t then. In that era it happened in the States but it didn’t happen here and that was the approach to primary education, obviously the thing about being curious about things and finding out about them. Also my mother used to get interested in something and then she’d really get into it. So the idea of finding out about things I got from my mother who certainly wasn’t a scientist. AW: So the development of your interest in statistics, is that something you started at Oxford because you on the following year to do the postgrad diploma at UCL? AM: Well, the thing about getting interested in statistics, I did Maths. I found it narrow just doing maths, maths, maths and I wanted to apply maths to something else really. It’s also quite obvious the difference between people who are real mathematicians and those of us that, who could get a respectable degree and, in my case because the seconds weren’t divided in those days you could get a letter from your tutor saying, ‘Had they been divided you would have got a 2:1.’ So the 2:1 people were I think qualitatively different from the people who were really good mathematicians. There was one person in our year, I think she got the second first and she was somebody from a very working class background who just did brilliantly and she stayed in Oxford for the rest of her life. And so, I did think about doing statistics as my third year option but the guy giving the statistics lecture was so crass in his language. I remember him going on about spurious correlations and you could do a correlation about television ownership and the number of patients, in what he, most unacademically, called “loony bins”. And I thought, ‘I think if I want to learn statistics I’ll go somewhere and learn it properly. I’m going to do general relativity for my third year option,’ because I wasn’t good enough to do quantum mechanics, but I really enjoyed general relativity. It was just a beautiful theory, but it didn’t even adequately explain the way Mars goes around the sun, but it was fascinating. And then I decided, ‘Right so I’ll go off somewhere else.’ My grandad was still living in the family home and my mother had also died after that so it was much more convenient to go back home, and so UCL was the obvious place to go because it had the most long-standing statistics courses, it had had the first professor of statistics, Karl Pearson. So I went to do a statistics diploma in the Department of Statistics, Eugenics and Biometry, it was called. And the room we did statistics practicals in, on a Brunsviga hand wound calculators, had cupboards which we were told contained some of Charles Darwin and Galton’s original data, and there was a bust of Darwin, always with a red, chalky nose because on rag week the students from King’s always came to nick him [laughs]. There was continuing rivalry between, I don’t know if it still happens, between King’s, given that UCL was the first non-Oxford university institution and founded on secular grounds and King’s was founded second as a riposte, to be a Church of England establishment. So the rivalry with the “Godless Garrison in Gower Street” was reflected in student rags, and we were never involved. We were postgraduate students, mostly from overseas. Well, there was one from Turkey who sadly I’ve lost contact with, although I went to visit her in Turkey History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 6 and someone else who was on day release from the Post Office. And then another statistician, who I have met since, and there weren’t many of us doing it, and of course as it was all done hand wound. Actually, an important thing that I left out, I did apply for jobs locally before, while I was deciding, as soon as I got into the statistics diploma, so this is going backwards. And one of the places that was local was Warren Spring Laboratory, Stevenage. And I think, there was a job there in the Air Pollution Division. And so I went for an interview there and I think I’d almost forgotten that it was the institution from Greenwich that had moved out to the Hertfordshire new town, I’ve gone blank. And of course when I went there, there were all people who remembered my father and some didn’t, and one who obviously didn’t like him said, ‘I’m surprised your father didn’t fix you up with a job.’ And I pointed out that my father was no longer in a position to fix me up with a job [laughs], He probably wouldn’t have done that anyway. That patronage was not… I was slightly embarrassed because everybody remembered him and was expecting obviously greater brilliance from me, but then I decided I’d rather actually do a statistics diploma and so that’s what I did, so I didn’t go to work at Warren Spring. AW: But you did end up in Hertfordshire County Council? AM: No, the first place I went to work was Rothamsted, which was down the road. And Rothamsted was light years ahead. It had one of the very first computers the Elliott 401, which was actually, they’d been in computing since 1954 and actually the Elliott 401 was leaving for the Science Museum just as I arrived, but I missed the party because I went to my Turkish friend’s wedding in London instead. Rothamsted had a whole lot of programmes for statistical analysis on its new Orion computer, which was ahead of its time but it was made by a company called Ferranti which also made the Atlas, which was a University of London computer. And they were ahead of their time but the company was taken over by what was ICT, which was the biggest company, and it became ICL and it decided to phase out the Ferranti computers and sell its model, the 1900s, which weren’t as sophisticated as the Ferranti computers which already had time-sharing. Rothamsted had a whole suite of statistical programmes and obviously it was very geared towards analysis of crop experiments, because that’s what Rothamsted did. They developed statistics, they had been analysing data before R A Fisher, but R A Fisher had gone there in the inter-war years and developed statistical techniques for crop analysis before he then left for Cambridge and Australia. And so they had computerised. They were all freestanding programmes at the time and you had a whole electric calculator on your desk all to yourself, no more hand winding of the Brunsviga. And also thinking of the development of statistics, I was working on an analysis of animal experiments, animal feeding experiments. My immediate boss had had polio and survived but whenever he went to a medical appointment the medic would terminate the clinical bit with, ‘Ah, Mr Lessels, we see you’re a statistician. Would you just like to have a look at my data before you go.’ So that was really before the rise of medical statistics. But that expanded later on and quite a few people of my generation started in agricultural statistics and then moved on to medical statistics. But I didn’t get there straight away, it took me another step, I graduated from UCL in 1965 and I didn’t get to medical statistics until 1972. And part of the expansion was all the medical schools had to appoint a lecturer in statistics and teach medical students statistics, although some of them, I should go back, in some cases there were power struggles in the medical schools and people who weren’t statisticians, like Chris [Derrett] at the Royal Free was taught by the prospective Conservative candidate for South Northants [laughter]. CD: That’s right. AM: And at Bart’s they were taught by Norman Kember, Senior Lecturer in Medical Physics, because medical physics wanted to control the world. And his boss, Joseph Rothblatt certainly wanted to control the world and however much he wanted peace internationally there was no peace in Charterhouse Square. But Norman was so conscientious that he wrote a statistics textbook, so it varied. Anyway, so going back, I went and worked at Rothamsted and got lots of useful and interesting experience. I was interviewed by Frank Yates who had been Head of Department for ages and had worked with Fisher, and by Michael Healy who between me being interviewed and me arriving, had left to work in medical statistics. And he has said, when interviewed by a history doctoral student from Italy so this is only second hand, that he had had enough of History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 7 benefitting rich farmers and ‘You go and work in medicine.’ Anyway, Frank Yates automatically put women on a lower scale than men because we would soon get pregnant and leave and I decided that I wasn’t going to stay. It was a good place for experience, but I wasn’t going to stay all that long. So I then, again I was looking into working locally and then went to work at Herts County Council on traffic surveys. And there the computing facilities were abysmal. The County Council had a 10 KB computer [laughs] and whenever you went and asked them to mount the Fortran compiler, they would tell you they were running the monthly payroll and ‘You do want to get paid, don’t you?’ So that was all there was, much of a limit on what you could do but we did do traffic surveys all over Hertfordshire, and they were all based on the assumption that once people owned a car they would use it for every single journey. But it wasn’t built on the assumption that if you built new roads, it would generate extra traffic, so the models in no way anticipated what would be the impact of the M25, because people started doing journeys that they wouldn’t have done before as a result of which the M25 ended up in one big traffic jam. But anyway, they had very limited modelling facilities compared to what they can do in traffic research these days. Anyway I stayed there for three years but I also got together with one other statistician employed by the Council and he was in what was then the Health and Welfare Department. And the two were separate at the time partly, and the health people tolerated it because the head of the social work side was, they respected him so much, Herbert Laming who we heard on Radio 4 this morning, expert advisor. But Vivian, the statistician there, was developing some of the earliest child health systems which could do a lot more than the current child health system in Tower Hamlets [laughs]. So I got some flavour of the Health and Welfare things that County Council was doing and that was a time of change because health side was still in the County Council and the two were split with the social work changes with the Seebohm reforms, and then obviously this is before 1974 when the health service was re-disorganised for the first major time. Anyway I stayed there for three years and then I was persuaded to go and work for this consultancy, Planning and Transport Research and Computation Company, but then the guy that ran it was a charlatan, he wasn’t actually getting any work in. So I started job hunting. AW: Was that the Experimental Cartography Unit? AM: No, no, that was before. It may not even be there on my CV. Planning and Transport Computation Company, 4 months. I was there for 4 months and then the next bit was the Centre of Urban Studies at University College London because that was more on social statistics and I thought that would be interesting. And the woman that ran it, Ruth Glass, she and her husband had written interesting stuff. However, working for Ruth Glass was not a pleasure, and people didn’t last very long and I didn’t, four months. She sacked me and then the ASTMS official who came and took it up with her said, ‘Well, in more civilised times she would have been burnt as a witch.’ And I discovered afterwards, in social sciences, being sacked by Ruth Glass was actually a positive thing to put on your CV. When I was at the School of Hygiene I met someone who had just been sacked by Ruth Glass and they were saying, ‘Never mind, it will look good on your CV.’ So that didn’t last long. So then I went job hunting again and one job offer was teaching statistics and I never found confidence in teaching. In fact when I finished my maths degree, going back, you went to the university careers office and were offered career advice by a guy in a hairy tweed jacket who blew pipe smoke all over you, and had two things on offer: one was teaching maths, in which case you went to see somebody downstairs; the other was working on a missile called Blue Streak [laughter]. And I said I wasn’t very interested in Blue Streak and he said, ‘Have you been on any of the Aldermaston marches?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I don’t like you people, you don’t wash,’ and blew smoke over me. So I knew that was no use, and Blue Streak was cancelled the following year, so it’s a good thing I didn’t go to work on that. So I was offered a job teaching statistics at Middlesex Poly and I flunked that and went to work at the Cartography Unit at the Royal College of Art as a programmer and that was interesting because it was all very new and at the very early stages of computerised maps. It was interesting seeing what they were doing and I stayed there over a year but I really decided that I wanted to get back to statistics. So I applied for the job at the Air Pollution Unit and went for an interview with Pat Lawther. ‘Of course I knew your father.’ I thought, ‘Not what I want to hear!’ [Laughs]. Is this patronage again? And I went to work there and I History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 8 remember, even then I had to go and ask to use data from the National Survey of Air Pollution at a big air pollution conference and all these people came and said, ‘Of course I knew your father.’ And that was, that must have been at least over 10 years after he’d died, so I felt a lot was expected of me and I wasn’t sure I was going to achieve that [laughs]. So again that was an interesting environment, which we, and nice colleagues like Chris and Phil Lord and that was, at that stage, we were using university computers so that the day had the rhythm that you went into University of London Computer Centre [ULCC], which has just been demolished. I went to a thing at the Institute of Child Health and I noticed that ULCC had just been demolished. And you went in and you got what had come out of the computer, the overnight run, and you corrected your punched cards and resubmitted them. AW: Was this to plot the graphs? AM: Well, it was two things: it was just generally to process data and then plot the graphs that was an offline facility so your programme wrote a ‘mag’ tape, which was then fed into the machine that plotted the graphs and then you got the microfilm to come out. So you then looked at the microfilm in the microfilm viewer and discovered the big line going across the middle of the graph or whatever. And then if it appeared to have worked you then took it back to the unit and showed it to Brian Biles, who was our electron microscopist but taught photography evening classes in his spare time, who would tell you, ‘You’ve got at least three copies of the Bible on that slide, you need to simplify it.’ [Laughs]. You’d then look at your programmes and punch some new cards and take them back to the computer at the end of the day and resubmit the job, and hope that the simplified graph would come the next morning. And sometimes if several of you had gone back to the Computer Centre, you’d adjourn to The Lamb in Conduit Street, which is remarkably unchanged, a lovely pub with lovely Young’s bitter, it was better in those days because it was still being brewed in Wandsworth, for a drink of beer and a moan about Pat Lawther [laughs]. CD: Can we take you back to those days, Alison. I notice that from your publications, quite a number of publications you were single author on and I wondered whether you were taken on to run a separate part of the research to Robert Waller, who was an epidemiologist, or whether you actually worked with Robert? AM: Well, I think there’s two things. I think he was told to hand over the daily mortality studies to me to take it on but equally I had loads of consultation with him and I worked with him on other things. So mostly, there’s a couple of publications with him, from the daily mortality stuff, but I think otherwise he was concentrating on other things. And I think he was concentrating work on the new pollution, oxides of nitrogen and ozone. Because certainly what we wrote about the summer heat deaths was referring to the very new measures that had been made of ozone but we didn’t have enough detail to actually correlate it. So I think the thing with the daily mortality studies he really handed over to me because it had been hand plotted and the fact that you could go to the university computer and the microfilm plotter had just come in, so that was fortuitous technological change, so that you could, compared to what you can now do and plot in no time, you could at least compared to hand drawings seven years of daily observations, which you wouldn’t do, but the fact that microfilm plotter would plot you seven years of daily observations you could see things that were not visible, and more subtle effects that weren’t visible, if you were hand drawing them. And it was very obvious that the big pollution episodes had gone away by then. I remember on the 10th anniversary of the great London fog of 1952 there were major fogs, and there was a belief in this 10 yearly cycle, there was huge activity in the unit and measuring x, y, and z and everybody rushing around, but what we didn’t have was the fog fortunately. But the other thing was that there hadn’t been a lot of looking at temperature and so probably what I did was went and looked at the summers because from the time, the other thing, the data for the daily mortality studies was especially produced for the unit and it was winters only up to before 1965. And I’d have to look back at the paperwork, I presume it came from the General Register Office but it might have come from the London County Council. And so we only had winters and so the focus was on the winters. But from 1965 the data came, when the GLC was founded it had set up a Research and Intelligence unit, which had much greater analytical capacity, not just for air pollution but for all sorts of things. Eric Thompson was the head of it and did a whole lot more History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 9 demographic stuff, just a whole lot more analysis. And the Air Pollution Unit then got daily printouts of data, that went all year, so that meant that from 1965 onwards we had the summer data as well. And I think there hadn’t been a lot of looking at the summer data, but they had been computerised. The other thing was that the analysis focused on the same broad categories that had been used before because there was only so much space on a punched card and you couldn’t enter all of it. The unit got more detailed data and the listings of the more detailed data, which I was worried had perished in the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit’s barns, is safely there currently in my living room and shortly going in the Wellcome Library. And it’s got Robert’s writing of what all the causes of deaths were, so there’s much broader, detailed causes of death, which probably you could get ONS [Office for National Statistics] to run off for you these days and it may be that St. George’s and the School of Hygiene have done this, but there it is annotated by Robert. I’m very pleased to have found those. But we didn’t look into, or do, more detailed analysis. CD: Can I just take you back to when you started there, were you briefed by Robert and Pat Lawther about what they wanted you to do? How much freedom did you have? AM: I’m trying to remember how much briefing I had. I think that Pat thought I was going to be as brilliant as my father and had high expectations. Pat was always disparaging about Robert. It was very obvious that Robert was an absolute mine of information and I think everybody else recognised that. So obviously, I don’t remember any formal induction process, but I do remember learning a lot from Robert. I don’t know if that’s your experience. So the fact that Robert was an epidemiologist. There hadn’t been a statistician before me. I think mine was a new post. But the other thing was, it was, the other thing I only stayed three years, I had a three year contract and I’m fairly sure that Robert handed over the daily mortality to me but certainly I was still working with him. So in fact the articles we wrote about summer heat deaths and ozone were a joint effort. And the reason I kept onto it was that I hadn’t written it all up by the time I left and then when I went to School of Hygiene I registered it for a PhD, which I never did, because in those days to have published quite a bit, in those days they didn’t have PhDs by publication. I looked into it and in the end I gave up on that. And also the methods that are now used for analysing daily mortality studies hadn’t yet been invented and I wasn’t strong enough methodologically to invent them. They have come later and they build on other statistical approaches which came after that. So I suppose if I, anyway I didn’t invent them and they weren’t there as standard and they weren’t written in statistical procedures. So I think there was, ‘How do we analyse this?’ and there were discussions about the fact that, two things, the fact that you needed to take, I think the thing Pat briefed me very much on the sequential thing that if you have a population of elderly people and it’s been a really cold winter, and then you have a summer heat episode, are they more vulnerable? So that the successive impacts on, whereas the focus before had been mainly on air pollution but also on obviously the impact of flu epidemics. And that’s one of the things that in the controversies, the more recent controversies about the 1953 fog, when the deaths in the second half of the winter after the 1953 fog there was a whole increase in flu deaths. And if you looked at the Registrar General’s weekly return you would see these flu deaths and doctors didn’t tend to certify flu as the cause of death until the RGCGP’s Surveillance Unit announced there was a flu epidemic and then people started putting it on death certificates. And certainly what was written in the fog report, it was written that there was a flu epidemic and that was the cause of the increase. There was awareness of that, whereas there was a woman, Devra Davis, her co-author was Michelle Bell, who was accusing, saying that there was a cover- up, that peak was also pollution deaths, was wrong on that and she hadn’t looked at the weekly returns or on what. She was also accusing the guy that set up the daily mortality studies, A E Martin from the Ministry of Health, she was accusing him of doing a cover up where he’d actually set up the daily mortality study. CD: That must explain a bit why the name of the Air Pollution Unit I think was changed or morphed to something with environment? AM: Right, yes, because there were two things happening with the Air Pollution Unit because it was known when Chris and I were there, the whole thing, the MRC would set up a unit around a distinguished scientist, History of Modern Biomedicine Interviews (Digital Collection) - Macfarlane, A e2017188 | 10 which was Pat Lawther, and the unit would continue during their working life, and it usually got closed when they retired. And two things: there was the belief certainly at the time I arrived, that the failure of the, there weren’t the big episodes of smoke and sulphur dioxide, therefore had pollution gone away? And the unit already knew that there was ozone and oxides of nitrogen but other people seemed to be unaware of it. So the name changed to Environmental Hazards and then it was, at its end it was Toxicology or something, wasn’t it? CD: I think so. AM: Yes, so it was partly Pat’s impending retirement but partly the belief that air pollution had gone away and therefore you had to give it a broader name of Environmental Hazards. And then there was also a Toxicology Unit at Carshalton and I think, I wasn’t there, it was obvious to me on a fixed term contract that the Unit wasn’t going to go on. The belief that pollution had gone away and Pat was coming up to retirement, that it wasn’t going to have a long-term future. A statistician friend who worked there after me nearer the end said not much work was going on at the time. There was one person there who had been productive in his early years but wasn’t terribly active, our good friend ‘Boots’ Ellison, John Ellison known as ‘Boots’ because that’s what he always wore. He was past his peak, wasn’t he? [Laughs]. And certainly with the belief that pollution had gone away there was a lack of direction. And the fact that the daily mortality study, we already knew about flu and that was worth pursuing and that was why certainly the one thing that Pat did ask me to write, a paper that he called, ‘You can’t kill Granny twice,’ was looking at successive episodes. I looked quite a lot at heat deaths and I also contacted people researching heat deaths. And there was research going on at St Pancras Hospital where they had a poorly insulated old people’s ward and it wasn’t very nice for them when it was hot and they did have a few health problems when it was hot weather. So yes, I think there was the, I took it in a different direction and Robert was a real expert on pollution and he was busy doing, he was busy advising the EU and doing a load of things, and advising Department of Health which was obviously why they transferred him there when the unit closed. He probably was treated with a bit more respect when he was there and the fact that they made sure they got copies of all his papers, whereas I think most, I think once the unit closed I think Nick Ward probably archived most of the unit’s stuff into a skip probably, because there was all that stuff in the basement. When the Unit closed right then they appointed a substantive Professor of Epidemiology, because Medical Schools needed Professors of Epidemiology in those days, medical physics was a bit on the wane and they needed Professors of Epidemiology and full time statisticians, employed by the Medical School rather than the MRC. And I remember going to, by that time I was in Oxford and I was invited back to go to Nick Wald’s inaugural lecture and I remember when I was in, I remember I’d already arrived in Oxford and I remember at one point Nick Wald telling an incredulous audience of obstetricians and midwives at John Radcliffe that every women’s menstrual cycle is exactly 28 days, and then another time when he was in Iain Chalmer’s office and I forget the name that he said, I’d gone back to get on with what I was doing, he’d said to Iain, ‘I can tell Alison doesn’t like me.’ Well, nobody liked him and when he arrived at Bart’s and gave his inaugural lecture Pat Lawther went but he said, ‘Well, I’m only wearing a sports jacket because I wasn’t, …’ He felt he’d been slighted and in fact Nick Wald said, ‘There have been Professors of Epidemiology at Bart’s before me, Percival Potts.’ He didn’t mention Pat Lawther, who was in the room, which was, an archetypal snub. So that was both the moving on that the medical college had to do and then the whole, then the merger with the Royal London and the epidemiology department moving down there. No, because the London appointed Eva Alberman of course. Anyway, so I’m wondering off course but so then in the late 1970s, after I’d left the unit, there was the report which I found the reference for, a committee chaired by Walter Holland which decided it wasn’t worth doing any more air pollution research because it had all gone away. So as I say, I took the daily mortality study with me and I think this is where Robert virtually handed it over to me at that stage, to finish writing it up while in my next job, which is what people on short term contracts do. And I had lots of those in the 1970s. You either leave them behind for the principal investigator to write up or you take them with you and that one I took with me. I think Robert had have said it had gone more, I’d gone more into weather.