Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky Full Episode Transcript With Your Host The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky Welcome to the Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley, author, speaker and educator on neuromarketing and the psychology of persuasion. Every week, we talk with thought leaders that will help you improve your influence with factual evidence and concrete research. Introducing your host, Roger Dooley. Roger: Welcome to the Brainfluence Podcast. I’m Roger Dooley. Our guest this week is an expert in behavior in the business world. He’s a professor of organizational behavior at Brandeis University’s international business school. He specializes in behavior change and cross-cultural interaction and business settings. He has degrees from Brown, Columbia and Harvard, and writes for the Harvard Business Review on a regular basis. His first book was Global Dexterity which focused on a key new skill for the 21st century, the ability for an individual to function effectively in different cultures while staying authentic and grounded. His new book is Reach: A New Strategy to Help You Step Outside Your Comfort Zone, Rise to the Challenge and Build Confidence. Welcome to this show, Andy Molinsky. Andy: Thank you so much, Roger. I’m really happy to be here. Roger: Great. I think Reach is really a timely book. Andy, I think most of us are limited by our comfort zones. We avoid things that make us uncomfortable even when those things would allow us to grow personally or help our careers or our businesses. One of the topics you mentioned, it’s both on the cover and of course in the book itself is networking. We all know networking is important, but many of us fail at it. I go to a lot of conferences and there’s always the obligatory networking social hour. You walk into the room and a third of the people are around the periphery staring at their phones in solitary mode. Probably, the majority of the little clusters of people talking are people who are from the same company or The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky who already know each other and there’s probably very little new contact making going on. I’m sure nobody sets out with that purpose in mind either. Nobody says, “I got to go down to that mixer because I really want to check my email while I’m holding a glass of wine.” That ends up happening in so many cases. Why is that? Andy: By that way, I should also add, you’ve got people pretending to go to the bathroom three or four times or people checking out things on the wall. It’s amazing, the different ways that we avoid having conversation networking events. I’ve talked with a lot of different people about networking and I have to admit that as it’s true with many other things in the book, I too have experienced the challenges in these situations. Networking as we know, it can be awkward for a lot of reasons. A lot of us feel uncomfortable approaching people, making small talk for various reasons. Some of us are shy, some of us are introverted, some of us feel small talk is pointless, let’s say. We might not even know what to say. Then when you get into the networking event, many people feel very uncomfortable pitching or promoting themselves. I know a lot of consultants whose job it is in these situations to pitch and promote themselves who feel deeply uncomfortable about doing it. Roger: You can’t really do it quite that blatantly. You don’t want to be the insurance person at the Christmas party who’s handing out a business card. Hopefully, what you are doing is making human contact with people, getting to know them, finding out what you have in common and then at some point you can then discuss business with them, but even just that human contact that’s the barrier there. I mean, I think once that’s made then discussing what you do or what they do is a lot easier. The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky Andy: I think that’s true. I think even though logically, people understand what you said. I think psychologically, often times people still feel deeply uncomfortable in these networking situations. I know that there’s been some psychological research about how people when they’re networking in this way feel dirty, like they psychologically feel dirty. On different tests where they have to fill in the blank questions, they often fill them in with words that have to do with cleanliness and dirty. I think that psychologically deep down even in our unconscious, it feels very uncomfortable. For a lot of people, it actually just helps to reframe the networking event just like you did as a way to make connections, as a way to potentially have authentic discussions. Sometimes it’s helpful for people to set goals. In other words, my goal is to have a genuine conversation with one or two people and if I really make a connection then I can maybe set up a future conversation in a context that’s more comfortable for me one on one over coffee and so on. I think networking events are rife for feelings of uncomfortableness, people feel inauthentic, people feel incompetent, people sometimes feel embarrassed. They worry that they’ll be liked or seen as too slimy and so on. It actually can be a very uncomfortable situation for a lot of us. Roger: I think the typical networking event is a microcosm of a lot of this stuff you talked about in your book. It’s not just one thing, it’s many of those things. What are some of the other types of activities that you found make people really uncomfortable? Andy: Public speaking is a big one. Speaking up at a meeting, being assertive, speaking your voice, I found that that’s something that’s very difficult for a lot of people to stand up and be assertive whether it’s in a meeting or to their boss or colleagues. Sales, I think a lot of people who aren’t sales The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky people struggle with sales, pitching and promoting their products. A lot of entrepreneurs who are product people have to really grow in to a lot of different roles, sales and management. They might not be comfortable with entrepreneurs pitching their ideas to venture capitalists especially young entrepreneurs like in a shark tank situation. Delivering bad news, it goes on, and on, and on. Roger: You’ve classified the barriers that make it difficult to do those things and these cut across those activities. I probably put in things like performance reviews in that really uncomfortable thing. I know that as a manager, that was something that the only thing worse than going through your own performance review is having to deliver someone else’s performance review particularly if it’s not necessarily the best one. That makes it tough, but what are the categories of barriers that make it difficult for people to do these things? Andy: I found that there are five different barriers across different professions and it’s not the case that in every situation we’re going to experience all these barriers but I found time and time again, these are the barriers people face. One is authenticity. We hinted at it earlier, the idea that this doesn’t feel like me. This really doesn’t feel like me and I don’t like to behave in a situation that feels like I’m a fish out of water that’s not me. For instance, I hinted at before pretending to put on your grown up voice when pitching to venture capitalist. A lot of young entrepreneurs felt very inauthentic stepping into that business person role when they didn’t feel that way. Likability is another one. That’s a second one to authenticity, likability. Worrying someone might hate you if you act really assertively. Certainly delivering bad news, as you just said. Likability, I think people, The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky again, logically understand it’s their job to deliver bad news but psychologically deep down, worry that the other person will hate them, especially if you’re a people pleaser, let’s say, as many of us are. Competence is another one. We worry that we’ll look like a fool giving a public speech. We worry that we’ll look like a fool really doing anything outside our comfort zone. It’s like writing with your left hand, being a fish out of water and you can worry inside that you’ll feel incompetent. Also worry that that’s visible to other people. Resentment is a fourth one. It’s interesting. Again, people logically understand when in Rome act like the Romans. I’m in a performance review situation. I got to do that performance review, but psychologically they sometimes resent the fact that they have to do it. Maybe not in terms of a performance review, but I found that with small talk for instance. A lot of people feel resentful that small talk and some of the soft skills are so important when their qualifications are really what should matter to get that promotion or get that job, right? Roger: Right. My product is so great, why should have I to sell it? Andy: Exactly. I’ve talked with a lot of people who feel that way especially about small talk. For years, I actually have studied not only people stepping outside their comfort zones and everyday life, but my previous book which is called Global Dexterity was about people stepping outside their cultural comfort zones. People from other cultures especially coming to the United States are often quite resentful about how important chitchat and small talk is. I know people who would interview for jobs who had tremendous qualifications, but they just couldn’t talk about the The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky weather or they’re commuting to the office and that wasn’t getting them the job. They were very deeply resentful about it. I’d say that’s a fourth one. Roger: I find that quite surprising, actually, Andy because it seems like Americans have had their reputation for being all business and get straight to the point where in other cultures there’s a much more a elaborate socialization process, but are you saying in some cases, that’s not the case and that other cultures are even more direct than we are? Andy: Definitely. I think there’s a range. I mean, I think that when you’re in Germany, for instance, small talk is just not part of their repertoire in a lot of professional situations, whereas if you go to Latin America, you might engage in a ton of small talk before getting down to business. I think the US in some ways is in the middle let’s say on that continuum, but I think that there is something about small talk in creating that sense of rapport, that a lot of people from outside the United States find very superficial. I think it is hard for people and I think sometimes people do feel resentful about how important it ultimately ends up being for various reasons to create that quick sense of trust. Roger: You’re probably seeing the research on that, but there’s some fascinating work done using the ultimatum game that usually it’s where one person divides, say, a small amount of money, say, $10 between himself or herself, and another person, and a second person can accept or reject it. Those deals often end in failure because the first person is seen as too greedy and the second person rejects the offer even though it’s causing them $2 or $3. They still reject it. Merely socializing for 10 minutes before playing the game, reduce the failure rate from 33% to 5%. The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky That’s something that I actually incorporate in a lot of my sessions is emphasizing that it’s important not to get down to business right away and what’s probably happening there is you’re finding some areas of common interest where you’re generating what Cialdini would call liking effect or even a unity effect, but that little bit of getting to know the person really does positively affect outcomes. I totally agree with you, that’s really important. Andy: I think that’s really interesting and that study is interesting. I think it’s important as well, but I do think that’s it’s also critical to understand that for some people, it’s actually really hard to do that. For those of us who are uncomfortable making small talk, we don’t know what to say. We don’t know how to engage someone. We don’t know how to start a conversation and we don’t know how to continue it after the first few questions. I have an Indian MBA student this semester. I teach a course. I teach MBA’s. I teach a course where I force them to step outside their comfort zones. We learn about the process while doing it. She was telling me the other day how her situation was trying to make small talk because for her, coming from India, it’s very uncomfortable to make small talk with strangers in the way we’re talking about. She was talking about getting her hair cut and how in the United States the person cutting your hair will chitchat with you and so on. She felt like she was trapped because she did not know what to say. Imagine how uncomfortable it is to sit there and to feel like so deeply anxious, and embarrassed, and uncomfortable, and not knowing what to say. She’s a very nice, lovely woman. Then of course on top of it, someone has got a scissors to your head. Roger: You can’t move so you’re literally trapped. The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky Andy: Exactly. Roger: Interesting. Competence is one of the things you mentioned. I assume that’s where the impostor syndrome comes in that seems to affect so many of us? Andy: Absolutely. I found that time and time again. You find it with people that you wouldn’t even suspect to have the impostor syndrome. In the book, I talk about how Natalie Portman of Star Wars fame, and Black Swan, and various other movies. She was an undergraduate of Harvard and she revealed after the fact many years later how incredibly uncomfortable she felt at Harvard feeling like such an impostor like, “Who am I to be here? Everyone must look at me and think of me as a dumb actress. Why am I in this role?” She actually came back and delivered a really stirring commencement speech many years later revealing her feelings. It’s funny how many people I talk with who the outside seem so confident and on the inside really feel like an impostor. I site in a book, a recent survey talking about how the number one fear among executives, CEOs is the impostor syndrome. Roger: Probably the more responsibility you have or have been given the more likely it is to kick in because the importance of the decisions you’re making. I think when you think about being, say, an undergrad student at Harvard, I would think that probably you’ve got two classes of people. Those people who feel like, “Wow. How did I get in here with all these other people? I really don’t belong here.” Then perhaps some narcissist who think, “Of course I’m here because I’m the best.” Andy: You’re probably right. You probably want to end up somewhere in between, right? Roger: Ideally. Is there a cure for the impostor syndrome? The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley Ep #143: Escape the Comfort Zone Trap with Andy Molinsky Andy: I think that one of the critical aspects that’s a cure for any of this is to develop what I talked about a sense of clarity. An even- handed perspective on the difficulties and challenges you face in any situation outside your comfort zone. Also an even- handed perspective on the good side as well, on how good you could possibly be. I think that people often are doomsday predictors when they step in to situations that are anxiety provoking that, “I’m going to be the worst. I’m awful. I’ll never be able to handle this promotion. I’ll never be able to handle this new responsibility,” and so on or they’ll go to the other extreme and say, “I better be the absolute best. I better be a prodigy. I better be unbelievable.” I think that when we’re in an anxious anxiety provoking situation, we can sway pretty quickly to either side and I think it’s key to have that psychological anchor in the middle to keep yourself grounded, to have that realistic sense that, “Yeah. I’m a novice here. I’m learning. I have a learning orientation. I’m going to make mistakes, but I’m probably also going to have some successes and maybe the fact I’m a novice actually is a benefit because maybe I’ll see things in a way that people who aren’t novices wouldn’t have seen.” I think that that is really critical in terms of curing the impostor syndrome or stepping outside your comfort zone in any situation. Roger: I’ve encountered it myself occasionally. I was at a conference where I was probably like the only speaker who wasn’t PhD and didn’t have really impressing academic credentials. At first like, “Good grief, what am I doing here?” Much less an opening keynote role, but then I had to reframe it in my mind, “What perspective am I bringing that these folks don’t have and why didn’t they invite me here to do this?” The Brainfluence Podcast with Roger Dooley