i [H.A.S.C. No. 110–58] DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE BODY ARMOR PROGRAMS COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION HEARING HELD JUNE 6, 2007 U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 37–812 WASHINGTON : 2008 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800 Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001 VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 5012 Sfmt 5012 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS IKE SKELTON, Missouri, Chairman JOHN SPRATT, South Carolina DUNCAN HUNTER, California SOLOMON P. ORTIZ, Texas JIM SAXTON, New Jersey GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii TERRY EVERETT, Alabama MARTY MEEHAN, Massachusetts ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland SILVESTRE REYES, Texas HOWARD P. ‘‘BUCK’’ MCKEON, California VIC SNYDER, Arkansas MAC THORNBERRY, Texas ADAM SMITH, Washington WALTER B. JONES, North Carolina LORETTA SANCHEZ, California ROBIN HAYES, North Carolina MIKE MCINTYRE, North Carolina KEN CALVERT, California ELLEN O. TAUSCHER, California JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania W. TODD AKIN, Missouri ROBERT ANDREWS, New Jersey J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia SUSAN A. DAVIS, California JEFF MILLER, Florida JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island JOE WILSON, South Carolina RICK LARSEN, Washington FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey JIM COOPER, Tennessee TOM COLE, Oklahoma JIM MARSHALL, Georgia ROB BISHOP, Utah MADELEINE Z. BORDALLO, Guam MICHAEL TURNER, Ohio MARK UDALL, Colorado JOHN KLINE, Minnesota DAN BOREN, Oklahoma CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana PHIL GINGREY, Georgia NANCY BOYDA, Kansas MIKE ROGERS, Alabama PATRICK MURPHY, Pennsylvania TRENT FRANKS, Arizona HANK JOHNSON, Georgia THELMA DRAKE, Virginia CAROL SHEA-PORTER, New Hampshire CATHY MCMORRIS RODGERS, Washington JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut MICHAEL CONAWAY, Texas DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa GEOFF DAVIS, Kentucky KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, New York JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, Arizona ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland KENDRICK B. MEEK, Florida KATHY CASTOR, Florida ERIN C. CONATON, Staff Director DOUG ROACH, Professional Staff Member JESSE TOLLESON, Professional Staff Member JOHN WASON, Professional Staff Member BEN GLERUM, Staff Assistant (II) VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 C O N T E N T S CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF HEARINGS 2007 Page HEARING: Wednesday, June 6, 2007, Department of Defense Body Armor Programs ........ 1 APPENDIX: Wednesday, June 6, 2007 ........................................................................................ 81 WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 2007 DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE BODY ARMOR PROGRAMS STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS Abercrombie, Hon. Neal, a Representative from Hawaii, Chairman, Air and Land Forces Subcommittee ................................................................................. 18 Hunter, Hon. Duncan, a Representative from California, Ranking Member, Committee on Armed Services ............................................................................ 2 Saxton, Hon. Jim., a Representative from New Jersey, Ranking Member, Air and Land Forces Subcommittee ................................................................... 19 Skelton, Hon. Ike, a Representative from Missouri, Chairman, Committee on Armed Services................................................................................................ 1 WITNESSES Coyle, Hon. Philip E., III, Senior Advisor, World Security Institute .................. 7 Morgan, Dr. Jonathan, Deputy Director, National Institute of Justice .............. 60 Neal, Murray, Founder and CEO, Pinnacle Armor, Inc. ...................................... 5 Noonan, Col. Kevin S., Program Executive Officer, Special Operations Forces Warrior Programs, United States Special Operations Command, U.S. Army 58 Smith, Col. Edward J., Product Group Director, Combat Equipment and Support Systems, U.S. Marine Corps ................................................................. 56 Smith, Roger M., Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy, (Expeditionary Warfare) ................................................................................................................ 55 Solis, William ‘‘Bill’’ M., Director, Defense Capabilities and Management Issues .................................................................................................................... 59 Thomas, Douglas D., Executive Director for the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Air Force ............................................................................. 57 Thompson, Lt. Gen. N. Ross, III, Military Deputy to the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Acquisition, Logistics and Technology ..................................... 53 APPENDIX PREPAREDSTATEMENTS: Abercrombie, Hon. Neal ................................................................................... 87 Coyle, Hon. Philip E., III ................................................................................. 144 Grant, John D., from Pearcy, Arkansas ......................................................... 92 Neal, Murray..................................................................................................... 97 Noonan, Col. Kevin S. ...................................................................................... 111 Skelton, Hon. Ike .............................................................................................. 85 Smith, Col. Edward J. ...................................................................................... 122 (III) VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 IV Page PREPAREDSTATEMENTS—CONTINUED Smith, Roger M................................................................................................. 129 Solis, William ‘‘Bill’’ M. .................................................................................... 157 Thomas, Douglas D. ......................................................................................... 116 Thompson, Lt. Gen. N. Ross, III, joint with Brig. Gen. R. Mark Brown ..... 134 DOCUMENTSSUBMITTEDFORTHERECORD: Body Armor Inquiry enclosures a, b, c, d, submitted by James G. Magee .. 194 Letter from John Morgan, Assistant Director, Office of Science and Tech- nology, National Institute of Justice Dated December 20, 2006 ............... 173 Recommendations for Testing Dragon Skin® Armor from Kirk Rice, NIST/OLES to Alex Sundstrom, NLECTC-National.................................. 183 [Pinnacle Armor submitted over 50 pages of testimony including the HP White test results, general company literature, product profiles, and biographical information which is retained in the committee files.] QUESTIONSANDANSWERSSUBMITTEDFORTHERECORD: Ms. Bordallo ...................................................................................................... 218 Mr. Conaway ..................................................................................................... 219 Ms. Davis........................................................................................................... 223 Mr. Forbes ......................................................................................................... 218 Mr. Ross ............................................................................................................ 222 Mr. Saxton......................................................................................................... 217 Mr. Skelton ....................................................................................................... 201 Dr. Snyder ......................................................................................................... 217 Mr. Spratt ......................................................................................................... 217 Mr. Thornberry ................................................................................................. 221 VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE BODY ARMOR PROGRAMS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES, Washington, DC, Wednesday, June 6, 2007. The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:05 a.m., in room 2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ike Skelton (chairman of the committee) presiding. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. IKE SKELTON, A REPRESENTA- TIVE FROM MISSOURI, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. This morning we will have testimony on the Department of Defense Body Armor Programs. We have with us today two panels. We have distin- guished witnesses representing the military services, private indus- try, and independent agencies. First, I want to thank them for appearing. I would like to remind the members, which I usually do anyway, that we are under the 5-minute rule; and because we have two panels, we want to move along as expeditiously as possible. However, I ask unanimous consent that Mr. Ross of Arkansas, Mr. Radanovich of California and other noncommittee members, if any, be allowed to participate in today’s hearing after all committee members have had an opportunity to ask questions. Is there an objection? If not, without objection, those Members will be recognized at ap- propriate times for five minutes. The jurisdiction of our committee is such that we cover a wide range of issues with the significance of other issues relative to the importance of providing the best protection possible for our men and women serving. Our committee has been in the forefront providing necessary, nonpartisan oversight on the full spectrum of protection matters. Since 2001, our committee has authorized over $5 billion to help the services procure body armor and expand that industrial base. Effective body armor is the baseline component to force protec- tion. It is critical to promoting the survivability of military person- nel serving in combat environments. Recent media reports have suggested that we may not be provid- ing the best body armor available. NBC News commissioned an independent round of limited ballistic tests that compared current body armor to another system called Dragon Skin. NBC indicates the results from these limited tests favor Dragon Skin over the cur- rent military Interceptor Body Armor (IBA). (1) VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 2 NBC tests contradict the information provided to this committee by military and Department of Defense (DOD) officials in numer- ous briefings and hearings. Most recently, the Army indicated to this committee in a closed briefing on May the 24th that they con- ducted first article live-fire ballistic tests on the Dragon Skin sys- tem in May of 2006. These tests also included environmental con- straints such as subjecting the vests to extreme temperatures and fluids to ensure the vests would hold up to conditions that the troops might find in the field. The Army tests engaged in showed Dragon Skin failed to meet the military body armor specifications. We are here today to gain a better understanding of our facts and to reassure our constituents that our goal remains that we are ensuring their sons and daughters are being provided the best body armor available. I ask unanimous consent to put the balance of my statement in the record. However, I wish to point out that we have as witnesses on the first panel: Representing Pinnacle Armor, Inc., Mr. Murray Neal, President and Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Neal. We thank you. The Honorable Philip Coyle, III. Mr. Coyle served at the NBC News tests. And thank you, Mr. Coyle. After Panel I concludes, we will have Panel II: Lieutenant General Ross Thompson, III; representing the De- partment of Navy, Mr. Roger Smith; representing the Marine Corps, Colonel Ed Smith; representing the Air Force, Douglas Thomas; representing the Special Operations Command, Colonel Kevin Noonan; representing the Government Accountability Office (GAO), Mr. Bill Solis, the Director of Defense Capabilities and Management; and representing the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), Dr. Jonathan Morgan. With that, I will recognize the ranking member, my friend from California, Mr. Duncan Hunter. [The prepared statement of Mr. Skelton can be found in the Ap- pendix on page 85.] STATEMENT OF HON. DUNCAN HUNTER, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA, RANKING MEMBER, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES Mr. HUNTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for holding this hearing. I think it is a good hearing and it is a good—it is al- ways, always the right time to work on force protection. You know, I looked over a few of the statements that were sub- mitted to the hearing. Mr. Coyle, we have worked with you for a long time and appreciate your statement that you sent in. But one that I wanted to lay out first, I noticed a statement by you saying you thought that the Armed Services Committee needed to be more open to innovation. And I thought that we needed to let you know about some of the innovations that we have done. When our guys started to get hurt with Improvised Explosive De- vices (IEDs) in Iraq, this committee went to Defense Advanced Re- search Project Agency (DARPA) and got money and we built a gun truck. In fact, we built over 113 of them and gave them to the U.S. VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 3 Army. The Army ultimately funded a few of them, but we basically gave them to them—built it with DARPA money. This is a picture of one of them that I am going to send down to you. This is one of the gun trucks, called the Iron Horse; and there is a letter written to one of the Livermore personnel who helped to put this together, thanking him for saving his life with this truck that has a double hull with an inch and a quarter of E Glass, something that has never been done by any of the services, that we distributed to Iraq, that has taken massive IED blasts. And to my knowledge, not one of these trucks that was provided by this committee was ever penetrated. Now, that is an initiative that this committee took with no urg- ing from any service but because we needed it. I have got another picture, and that is something we call Little Blue that is a portable jammer. Ten thousand of these jammers were provided by this committee in 70 days, which was a record time from start to finish, so that our marines and soldiers could have a jammer that they could carry on foot patrols, because as you know, all of the jammers that we had in the theater heretofore were massive jammers that had to be carried on Humvees or larger vehicles. We turned those babies out in 70 days, 10,000 of them; and we found out that we needed to bypass acquisition regulations. So there is a third thing I want you to take a look at, and that is a one-page certification for the Secretary of Defense (SECDEF) that Mr. Skelton and I and the other members of the committee pro- vided by changing the law. That says, if we are taking hits on the battlefield, if we are taking injuries on the battlefield, the Sec- retary of Defense, by signing his name, can waive every acquisition regulation in the United States and move equipment to the battle- field quickly; and by signing that, Secretary Rumsfeld allowed us to get 10,000 jammers to the field in 70 days—incidentally, a record that hasn’t come close to being broken since we have re- verted back to the old system. Now, I know that Mr. Abercrombie has worked on this issue that we are going to talk about today, and Mr. Skelton also. I wanted to just offer a little corporate history here. I heard about the Dragon Skin either from a soldier or a marine who had heard about it from a family member or from a Web site; I can’t remember exactly which one. But I called our staff here and said, Bring these guys in; let’s see what they’ve got. Your guys, Mr. Neal, came in and met with the Armed Services folks; and our guys called up the Army and said, We wanted you to test this, to which the Army responded, We have already got a test laid on. And I have got a letter here, but apparently they also responded to Mrs.—to Senator Hutchison, who had made a request to have Dragon Skin tested. The Army said, We are going to test it; and the Army did test it. Now, I have looked at the tests today, the tests that they did, and they said they did these tests with you folks present at the test. Showed a lot of penetrations. I saw after that—the back-and- forth where you felt that you had unfair tests. You shot at the edges, and other things were done that you think allowed these VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 4 penetrations to take place, but there are fairly substantial penetra- tions in that armor. Now I understand that you then went to a German tester and you got a test done that indicated that Dragon Skin does great. A couple of things: I think that there is always a massive bu- reaucracy in the Department of Defense. We all know that, and we in Congress who helped to create that bureaucracy with our rules and regulations—many of which attend the competitive arena and accommodate the competitive arena, which you wouldn’t have oth- erwise. But we also have the ability to move very quickly, and often there is a response, a bureaucratic response. It builds up. That does impede getting equipment to the battlefield quickly. I don’t know which category this falls in, but I do know this: The Army reported back to us, after we told them we wanted them to test this, that they did test this and they told us the results and they showed penetrations. I know there are lots of folks, families paying 5K apiece for this body armor. I can tell you there are five members of this committee who have their kids at one time or another wearing body armor in theater, either Iraq or Afghanistan. And that includes this Member of Congress. In fact, as we sit here today, my son is wearing, on his third tour, the body armor that is issued to him by the U.S. Marine Corps, the same stuff that everybody else is using. So what I would like you to address today is whether or not you folks have come to closure with the Army on doing a test. The Army informed us that it took five months to get a set of Dragon Skin or enough sets from you guys to get the test done, but that ultimately it was done with you folks attending the test. And I want to know what your take is, if you stood there and watched them shoot this stuff and the bullets went through it, if you think the test was faulty. If it wasn’t faulty, why didn’t you speak up, or let us know that you thought you had a faulty test? And did you talk to the Army about it? And then we are going to ask the Army if there is an opportunity to take this stuff out and shoot it and see if it works. And, Mr. Coyle, as a guy who has worked on lots of things like the B–2 bomber and lots of other very complex systems, it seems to me that this shouldn’t require rocket science to tell if a bullet goes through a certain substance. We ought to be able to figure this out. So I hope that we finish this hearing off by coming to some kind of an agreed-upon third-party test, Mr. Chairman, that will help to resolve this issue. And I think we need to move egos and personal- ities and cross-currents aside. And, Mr. Neal, I saw some pretty strong statements by you after I asked our guys to have you come in and show us what you had. They wrote a report that said that they saw what the Army had seen on this test. You had a couple of strong statements about them to the effect that they were part of a—part of the problem. And I can just assure you that the guys that we have got work- ing, the men and women that we have working on force protection, have had lots of occasions when they brought in the Army and the Marine Corps, and this committee has brought in the Army and VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 5 the Marine Corps, and we have put enormous pressure on them when they have not provided what we thought was needed to be provided in terms of force protection. If you want to go to sleep, get some late night C-SPAN, you can run some of the old tests or some of the old C-SPAN of hearings that this committee has done on force protection with respect to Humvees, up-armor, and jammers and the like. So we are interested in making sure we get the right protection for our troops. But the big question here is, how could the Army’s test—which shows complete penetration, and I have looked at it— be so different from this test that you folks took with this inde- pendent agency in Germany? I would like to see those tests rec- onciled. So, Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing today. I think it is absolutely timely, and I look forward to seeing how these, how the Army tests and the Dragon Skin tests stack up. And if you’ve got the—if you’ve got the real McCoy, Mr. Neal, we want to get it out there fast. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter. We will hear from the chairman of the subcommittee and the ranking member a bit later. Be that as it may, we will now welcome Mr. Neal and Mr. Coyle. Thank you. Mr. Neal. STATEMENT OF MURRAY NEAL, FOUNDER AND CEO, PINNACLE ARMOR, INC. Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, honorable members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to come before you today to give you the facts and information needed to make sure that as long as—— Mr. HUNTER. I think you have got the wrong Neal. The CHAIRMAN. No. Mr. Abercrombie will speak later. Mr. ABERCROMBIE. I want to get the testimony in. The CHAIRMAN. I called on Mr. Neal. That is his name; is that correct? Mr. NEAL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. You are on. Mr. NEAL. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, honorable members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to come before you today to give you the facts and information needed to make sure that as long as we have American men and women in harm’s way in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, they will have the best possible body armor produc- tion available. My name is Murray Neal, and I am the founder and chief execu- tive officer of Pinnacle Armor, a company in Fresno, California. You have my written testimony addressing all of the concerns of testing, protocol issues, and my request for a fair and honest, unbi- ased hearing. The bottom line for me, and I would say for the American people, is that Dragon Skin has been verified as the best body armor in the world by testing throughout the U.S., as well as in other allied VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1 6 nations and beyond. Therefore, all we ask is for a third-party inde- pendent testing of Dragon Skin at a facility that has Office of the Secretary of the Defense Department Testing and Evaluation over- sight. Please note that the only testing facility where the Dragon Skin has allegedly failed happens to be the only place where the current Interceptor has always passed, which is why we are seeking a neu- tral and independent party. That testing facility where the Interceptor always passes is the H.P. White Laboratory, which is primarily the Army’s go-to lab for the testing of body armor. And I believe that any future tests at that laboratory of either type of body armor will yield the same re- sults. The Army tells you that it wants to test Dragon Skin along with the Interceptor, and we welcome such a test. But they insist on us using rigid-plate technology, and we insist on using the most tech- nologically advanced, only flexible, rifle-defeating body armor in the world. If Dragon Skin performed as poorly as the Army claims, why is it doing everything in its power to obfuscate and avoid such an independent test, which would ostensibly validate its allegations against Dragon Skin and support Army claims that the Interceptor is the best body armor in the world, bar none? There is a pattern of anti-Dragon Skin disinformation coming from the Armed Forces, and most of this can be traced to a single source. If that isn’t enough, you would be intrigued that despite the fact that the Army claims it uses H.P. White Laboratory as an inde- pendent facility, it is that source that runs the entire so-called ‘‘independent testing protocol,’’ monitors and controls the test. Gen- eral Mark Brown has told you that he told the media in the May 21st briefing that Mr. Karl Masters is, in Brown’s words, the chief engineer and test director. That begs the question of how independ- ent and unbiased the H.P. White test really was or could be in the future. The issue of the lack of quality of the Interceptor vests was broadly discussed during a Federal investigation of a body armor defense contractor that was conducted by the FBI, the Defense Criminal Investigative agency, and the United States attorney for the Eastern District of New York. This Federal investigation also determined that fielded Intercep- tor Body Armor did not meet ballistic standards. And the investiga- tor discovered that the armor had failed these standards and was recalled, yet it is was still issued to our troops. The Army allows the test director to have broad discretion above and beyond the written test protocols and procedures. Lieutenant Colonel Gabriel Patricio of the Marine Corps, pro- gram manager responsible for body armor said, and I quote, ‘‘Fail- ing or passing anything, that is a matter of some testing, proce- dures, and interpretations.’’ Over a 3-year period from 2002 to 2005, in cooperation with the Army Research Lab in Aberdeen, I worked on a development of a testing protocol for a flexible, rifle-defeating body armor that would provide a 95 percent level of confidence indicating multiple high- powered rifle rounds across the board. This is at a success rate VerDate 22-MAR-2001 14:19 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 037812 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\110-58\157000.000 HNS1 PsN: HNS1