1 RPTS BLAZEJEWSKI DCMN SECKMAN COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. DEPOSITION OF: AMBASSADOR THOMAS R. PICKERING Tuesday, June 4, 2013 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2157, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m. 2 Appearances: MEMBERS PRESENT: REPRESENTATIVE DARRELL ISSA REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN REPRESENTATIVE JASON CHAFFETZ REPRESENTATIVE JAMES LANKFORD REPRESENTATIVE ELIJAH CUMMINGS REPRESENTATIVE MATTHEW CARTWRIGHT REPRESENTATIVE STEPHEN F. LYNCH REPRESENTATIVE GERALD E. CONNOLLY REPRESENTATIVE PETER WELCH REPRESENTATIVE MARK POCAN For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: JONATHAN J. SKLADANY, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL JIM LEWIS, SENIOR POLICY ADVISOR STEPHEN CASTOR, INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL/CHIEF JOHN OHLY, PROFESSIONAL STAFF BRIEN BEATTIE, PROFESSIONAL STAFF SUSANNE SACHSMAN GROOMS, MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL CHRIS KNAUER, MINORITY SENIOR INVESTIGATOR JASON POWELL, MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL PETER KENNY, MINORITY COUNSEL 3 For THE WITNESS: KEVIN M. DOWNEY SAMUEL BRYANT DAVIDOFF Williams & Connolly LLP 725 Twelfth Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 4 Mr. Castor. Good morning, Mr. Ambassador, my name is Steve Castor. I am a staffer here with the committee's majority staff. This is a deposition of Ambassador Thomas Pickering conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. This deposition is occurring pursuant to a subpoena issued by the chairman on May 28th as part of the committee's investigation into the attacks on U.S. diplomatic facilities in Benghazi that resulted in the deaths of four Americans, including the Ambassador Christopher Stevens. Our committee is interested in developing a better understanding of the work of the Accountability Review Board, and that is why the chairman has asked you to come in, and just for the record, would you state your name. The Reporter. Do you want me to swear him in? Mr. Issa. Oh, yes. Mr. Castor. He can state his name, and then you can swear him in. The Witness. My name is Thomas R. Pickering. The Reporter. Do you want to raise your right hand, please? The Witness. Sure. The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? The Witness. I do. Mr. Castor. I think it might make sense to introduce at least the folks at the table. Everyone in the room will be captured on the 5 record. So you are here with your counsel, Mr. Downey, so why don't you just introduce yourself for the record? Mr. Downey. Good morning. Good morning, Mr. Castor. Kevin Downey and Samuel Davidoff from Williams & Connolly here as counsel to Ambassador Pickering. Mr. Castor. Also Mr. Issa, why don't you introduce yourself for the record? Chairman Issa. Congressman Darrell Issa, and I guess the chairman and the convening authority. Mr. Cummings. Congressman Elijah Cummings, ranking member of Oversight. Mr. Lewis. James Lewis with the majority staff. Mr. Castor. The committee appreciates your appearance this morning at this deposition as a precursor to a future hearing. Your decades of dedicated and diverse experience with the State Department offer a unique insight that is extremely valuable to the committee and its work. You have undoubtedly earned the title of Mr. Ambassador, and I will strive throughout the deposition to use that title. There may be occasions where I don't, and so please excuse me. It is certainly no disrespect. The Witness. It's very kind, Mr. Castor, and don't feel constrained. Mr. Cummings. Are we going to start the clock? Mr. Castor. This is sort of an intro. Some of the questions today will likely appear very basic and will hopefully be very easy 6 for you. The Witness. Sure. Mr. Castor. This is not intended to demonstrate a disrespect for the work of the Accountability Review Board or your time and experience. The committee has staff with State Department experience. We have Foreign Service officer experience, and many of our Members, both Republican and Democrat, are versed on this, but we, you know, we are working to create a clear record that can help all of our Members understand the work of the ARB. Before we begin, I will go over some of the ground rules. I know we talked a little bit before we got on the record, the way the questioning will proceed, and this is all pursuant to our committee rules, you know, Rule 15(g) talks about the questions in depositions shall be propounded in rounds, alternating between the majority and the minority. A single round shall not exceed 60 minutes, and we have the timer here, unless there is an agreement of everyone that we ought to continue. In each round, a Member or a staff attorney designated by the chairman or the ranking member will be responsible for asking the questions. Any objection made during the deposition can be made by you or your counsel, and, you know, relating to privilege only, and we just ask that you state it concisely and not argumentative, a nonsuggestive manner under the rules, and the witness may refuse to answer a question to preserve that privilege, and the chairman at a point later will rule on it. There won't be any rulings here at the deposition. There is 7 a provision for appeals, and I am sure you have seen that in the rule. This isn't like a deposition in Federal Court. The committee format is not bound by the Federal Rules of Evidence, so we just point that out. You are welcome to confer with your counsel at anytime throughout the deposition. If something needs to be clarified, please, let me know. We would like to take a break whenever it's convenient for you. Often we'll do it at the end of each round or each hour of questions, but we're by no means limited to that. If you need some water or to confer with your lawyer, that's perfectly fine. This deposition is unclassified, so if a question calls for any information that you know to be classified, the best idea is just to give us as much as you can, and you can alert us. We do have a way, the chairman can have witnesses in and have one of these in a classified setting. There may be votes called during the deposition. If you would like to continue during votes, you can waive the Member requirement. The rules ask that it's done in writing, so we point that out for you. And, you know, our preference is not to unnecessarily burden your schedule. You're a distinguished witness and a very busy person; we recognize that. I anticipate that this may go the length of the day. By my calculation, I probably have three or four rounds of questions, but to the extent we get going, it might be substantially shorter. There's an official reporter, of course, taking down everything you say, making a written record, so we ask you give verbal responses, 8 yes and no, as opposed to nods of the head and so forth. Every now and then there might be a situation where we're talking over one another. Our reporters might have to raise their hand and have us slow down. The Witness. Sure. Mr. Castor. We want you to answer the questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time. I'm happy to repeat any questions. If you honestly don't know the answer to a question or don't remember, it's best not to guess. The Witness. Sure. Mr. Castor. Just give us your best recollection, or if there is people you want to refer us to that can help us on there, that would be fine. This deposition is under oath. You've taken the oath. You understand you're required to answer questions to Congress truthfully. The Witness. [Nonverbal response.] Mr. Castor. Yes? The Witness. Yes. You were nodding, so I nodded. I'm sorry. Mr. Castor. Yeah, we go through that with all our witnesses. Chairman Issa. At least here we're not asking you to speak closer into the microphone. The Witness. I have a question for my counsel, so if you would give me the opportunity. Mr. Castor. Of course. [Discussion off the record.] 9 The Witness. Thank you. Chairman Issa. I would only add two things, both for the ambassador and for all of us. If at any time you need to consult with your attorney, if it's a second or two, we're not going to stop the clock. If it needs to be longer, she'll stop the clock. The Witness. Sure. Right. Chairman Issa. We will remain on the record unless I ask or whoever is sitting in my chair asks to go off the record. This is not -- Mr. Cummings, as you know, this is not a hearing, so points of order and requests [inaudible] for information of that sort, you know, none of those privileges apply. However, if either yourself or anyone on either side behind us has a question as to the order, the only thing I ask is they direct it through either your designated staff or yourself, and then we'll go off the record if you or whoever, if you leave, you're designating wants to have a discussion about it, but we won't, I will not entertain anything in general from outside. Obviously, the witness at any time can make an assertion pursuant to what Mr. Castor had done. We don't do depositions that often. Most of ours are interviews. So I think that clarifies the only differences, and other than that, Mr. Castor has the hour. EXAMINATION BY MR. CASTOR: Q Could you tell us when you first heard there was going to be an Accountability Review Board convened for the Benghazi? 10 A I'm not sure of the exact date. Probably in the press at sometime after September 11th. Q And when was it convened, if you recall? A October 5th. Q And the report was released? A December -- was it 17th? Probably. Q December 17th? A In that area, uh-huh. Q And as I understand it, after the work of the ARB is completed, it goes away? A The report becomes, as I understand it, the property of the Secretary. And I received a letter from the Secretary thanking me for my service, which I understood, I believed to be the dismissal. Q Was this your first experience serving on an Accountability Review Board? A Yes. Q Could you walk us through how -- is it staffed? A Yes. Q And could you explain to us how it's staffed? A I believe that the State Department provides the staff for the ARB. They're all serving Foreign Service or civil service officers. Q And how many staff members were there? A Let me think. I would guess five or six, plus two lawyers. Q Are you aware of how the members of the Accountability