IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 Friday, 13 October 2017 1 A. Indeed, yes. 2 (10.30 am) 2 Q. As the term suggests, dealing with children. Was it 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, Mr Altman. 3 just an arm of social work, but it was a label depicting 4 MR ALTMAN: Good morning. Chair. Can I just remind 4 the fact that you worked within childcare? 5 everybody, as is obvious, but as was indicated, I think, 5 A. Yes, it was essentially a Social Work Department that 6 at the last preliminary hearing, Professor Sir 6 they established in 1948, I think, is my recollection. 7 Malcolm Evans has a commitment abroad, and that's why he 7 Q. At that time, was Lyndon Price the children's officer? 8 is not here, but he has undertaken to read the 8 A. Yes, he was, yes. 9 transcript and the materials of the evidence today in 9 Q. So he was, I think we have been told before, 10 order to catch up in time for Monday. 10 a children's officer as distinct from a childcare 11 Chair, the first witness for this morning is 11 officer, was slightly higher ranking? 12 Allan Buckley, who is sitting in the witness box. Thank 12 A. He was the head of department. 13 you very much. 13 Q. Then in 1971, he became the first Director of Children's 14 MR ALLAN LAWRENCE BUCKLEY (sworn) 14 Services in Rochdale; is that right? 15 Examination by MR ALTMAN 15 A. He became the first Director of Social Services. 16 MR ALTMAN: Can you confirm, please, that you are Allan 16 Q. Not children's services? 17 Lawrence Buckley. 17 A. No. 18 A. Yes. 18 Q. Social services. You are quite right. 19 Q. Now Mr Buckley, I want to ask you some questions about 19 A. Social services. 20 your time with the Rochdale Borough Council, and in 20 Q. Have you got your statement in front of you? 21 particular the roles which you had in the 21 A. I have, yes. 22 Social Services Department. 22 Q. Please refresh your memory from it at any time if you 23 Going back a little in time before I do that, can 23 wish. You made it on 3 December 2014. Can you confirm, 24 you tell us about your education and how you came to be 24 but I am sure you don't need your statement to do so, 25 working for Rochdale Council? 25 that in 1971 you, yourself, were appointed a senior Page 1 Page 3 1 A. Yes. I joined Manchester Social Services Department as 1 social worker? 2 a childcare officer in 1966 and transferred to Rochdale 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 in 1967. 3 Q. At Dunstrille? 4 Q. Had you been to university? 4 A. Dunsterville. 5 A. Yes, I did a degree in social administration at 5 Q. Dunsterville? 6 Hull University and then subsequently trained as 6 A. Yes. 7 a psychiatric social worker at the University of Leeds. 7 Q. Where is Dunsterville? 8 Q. Was that while you were being employed? 8 A. It was an office on Manchester Road in Rochdale, which 9 A. Yes, I was seconded by Rochdale Children's Department to 9 was set up when Social Services Department -- when the 10 do my professional training. 10 Social Services Department was established. 11 Q. You described yourself, when you were first employed by 11 Q. Your statement was obviously mistyped, not by you, but 12 Rochdale, as a childcare officer? 12 by whomever took it, because it reads "Dunstrille", but 13 A. Correct. 13 it is Dunsterville? 14 Q. Is that or was that a term of art? Was it a social 14 A. Dunsterville, yes. 15 worker by another name? 15 Q. In 1974, did you become an area manager? 16 A. It was in the days when there were three separate arms 16 A. Yes. 17 of what were Social Services Departments. So there were 17 Q. For which district or area? 18 Children's Departments. Mental health services were 18 A. That was for the central area of Rochdale. 19 under the aegis of the local Public Health Departments 19 Q. Between 1974 and 1980, were you a manager? 20 and there were separate what we called Welfare 20 A. Yes. 21 Departments for older people and people with 21 Q. Within the same department or area? 22 disabilities. A completely different arrangement, 22 A. I transferred briefly to the Heywood area team. 23 really. 23 Q. Heywood? 24 Q. So a childcare officer was within the third or one of 24 A. Heywood area team, in about 1983, I think. 25 the three arms of social services? 25 Q. Heywood, again, what's that? Is that a distinct area of Page 2 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 Rochdale? 1 Q. I think you have given a hint, but was it simply in 2 A. It was, yes. Yes. 2 those political circles you were hearing rumours, or 3 Q. Then in 1987, you became Deputy Director of Social 3 elsewhere? 4 Services? 4 A. That was the only place I ever heard it. I certainly 5 A. That's right, yes. 5 never heard it within the Children's Department. 6 Q. As well as chair of the Rochdale area child protection 6 Q. That was my next question, because once you started 7 committee? 7 working for the council in the Children's Department, 8 A. That's right. 8 not a word at all about that kind of thing? 9 Q. Then around 1992, as a result of a restructure, you 9 A. No. 10 became Assistant Director for Adults? 10 Q. Never heard anybody suggest gossip, rumour that 11 A. That's correct, yes. 11 Cyril Smith was doing what you had heard in Labour 12 Q. Does that mean you moved away from childcare or 12 circles he was alleged to be doing? 13 social services generally, or just moved into adults? 13 A. No. 14 A. I actually carried out the restructure in the 14 Q. Was there ever a time when you were working for the 15 department. It was my -- I was the lead officer 15 council that you heard anything at all about Cyril Smith 16 responsible for that. At the time, there was a move 16 in that particular regard? 17 increasingly towards greater specialisation, so we 17 A. The only thing that I did hear, and I've mentioned in my 18 decided to restructure the department into two 18 statement, there's an article appeared in a newspaper 19 functional units: children's; adults, and to delete the 19 called Rochdale Alternative Press. I think it would be 20 deputy post which I held. So I then opted to move as 20 just before the 1979 general election. 21 a Senior Assistant Director into responsibility for 21 Q. You are right about that. 22 adult services and therefore, yeah, I didn't have any 22 A. The article contained affidavits from young people who'd 23 direct responsibility for childcare services other than 23 been at the Cambridge House Hostel. That was the only 24 that, as the deputy, I would be involved in matters of 24 time that I saw any of that material or any of 25 that kind in the director's absence. 25 the rumours verified, if you like. Page 5 Page 7 1 Q. You finally retired in 1999? 1 Q. So rumours before you worked for the council? 2 A. That's correct. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Against that background, Mr Buckley, let me come to some 3 Q. Rochdale Alternative Paper, as I was told yesterday, 4 questions, please. First of all, Cyril Smith, if I may. 4 rather than "Press", is what it was called, but you are 5 A. Yes. 5 certainly right, the article appeared in May 1979, 6 Q. In your witness statement, you will remember -- I am not 6 a double-page expose on Cyril Smith, which we heard all 7 going to point out the paragraph, unless you would like 7 about yesterday. What about the police investigation 8 me to -- you said that you had heard rumours about him, 8 that we all know took place by Lancashire Constabulary 9 even before you started working for the council; is that 9 in 1969 to 1970? You were clearly working at that point 10 right? 10 for the council. Did you personally know about that 11 A. That's correct, yes. They were -- I was involved with 11 investigation? 12 the Labour Party, and the rumours were around 12 A. No. 13 Labour Party circles. 13 Q. Did anybody talk to you about that investigation? 14 Q. What were the nature -- 14 A. No. 15 A. Well -- 15 Q. Lyndon Price. Did you work closely with him? 16 Q. What was the nature of the rumours? 16 A. I did, when he was children's officer particularly. 17 A. It was that Cyril's been involved in inappropriate 17 Obviously, when he became director, we were a bigger 18 activity with small boys. I at the time, and this was 18 department, my dealings with Lyndon became less and 19 before I had actually gone into the social work 19 I worked to Gordon Littlemore as a deputy director. 20 profession, took this to be, you know, political gossip. 20 Q. In 1965, you weren't working at the council yet. 21 Q. Political rumour mongering is what you thought it might 21 I think you told us 1966. 22 be? 22 A. Indeed. I began work in 1966, yes. 23 A. Indeed, yes. 23 Q. Did Lyndon Price ever say anything to you about the 24 Q. So "acting inappropriately with boys". Sexual? 24 Lancashire investigation? 25 A. That was the impression that I gained. 25 A. No. Page 6 Page 8 2 (Pages 5 to 8) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 Q. Did he ever tell you anything about any approach he had 1 been discussion between staff, but certainly, at 2 made to the chief constable before you arrived at the 2 a managerial level, I was never involved in any 3 council, about an approach he'd made to the former chief 3 discussions about what action might be taken as a result 4 constable, Patrick Ross, in 1965? Did he ever mention 4 of that. 5 that to you? 5 Q. Do you know whether anyone considered seeking the 6 A. No. 6 affidavits which RAP said they had which enabled them to 7 Q. As a person, Lyndon Price, how did you regard him? 7 write the article that they did? 8 A. He was a very charismatic leader. He was ahead of his 8 A. No. 9 time. At the time -- one of the reasons I went to 9 Q. Did anybody consider that? 10 Rochdale was that he'd set up a system of family -- 10 A. No. 11 I can't remember the title now, but they weren't 11 Q. Or undertake any investigations into the allegations at 12 childcare officers. Childcare officers had a statutory 12 all? 13 role. He'd established an arm of the department to do 13 A. No. 14 preventive work with families, so getting ahead of 14 Q. Was there any concern that you recall being expressed 15 things. The sort of thing now that comes under the 15 about how deeply entrenched Cyril Smith was in council 16 heading of early intervention. So he was very much 16 services and activities relating to children in light of 17 ahead of his time. He was politically very astute. He 17 that article? 18 was able to build up the department's resources, both 18 A. No. 19 Children's and Social Services Departments' resources 19 Q. Let me now turn, then, please, Mr Buckley, to your 20 because he had a very high profile with the council, he 20 contact with Cyril Smith when you were an officer in the 21 was very highly respected. 21 Social Services Department. Is it putting it too highly 22 Q. So that we are clear, Mr Buckley -- this is no criticism 22 if I were to ask you whether you had a number of run-ins 23 of you; we are just trying to assess, because you are 23 with him? 24 one of the few witnesses, if not the only one, who we 24 A. No, it wouldn't. Initially, when I was a childcare 25 can ask about that early period. 25 officer, relationships were good. Page 9 Page 11 1 A. Indeed, yes. 1 Q. You mean with him? 2 Q. Did he ever mention Cyril Smith to you, or any concerns 2 A. With him, indeed. Could I go on to something that's not 3 he might have had about Cyril Smith? 3 in the statement, but helpful? 4 A. No. No. 4 Q. Tell us what you wish, Mr Buckley. 5 Q. Did anyone ever mention Cambridge House Hostel to you? 5 A. He was actually -- this has occurred to me 6 A. The name Cambridge House was mentioned. I think it had 6 subsequently -- rather paradoxically -- well, perhaps it 7 closed shortly before I went. But only as a place -- as 7 makes sense now -- involved in a lot of developments at 8 a working boys' hostel that we had in Rochdale. 8 children's services. He set up an organisation called 9 Q. But nobody ever mentioned anything to you about the 9 Rochdale Childer -- "childer" being a local word for 10 hostel. You are right it closed before you joined the 10 "children" -- to raise money for disadvantaged children, 11 council, the year before, but did anybody ever mention 11 and he had a very good relationship with the staff at 12 to you anything that they had heard or any allegations 12 William Street Convent, which was a Roman Catholic 13 arising out of the hostel and links between those 13 voluntary social work organisation. So in those 14 allegations and Cyril Smith? 14 capacities, when I was a childcare officer, I would meet 15 A. No. 15 with him about those sorts of developments. 16 Q. You mentioned to us the Rochdale Alternative Paper 16 Subsequently, when I became an area manager, in the 17 article, May 1979. So we are fast forwarding by 17 role of an MP, quite appropriately, he would write 18 a number of years. What was the reaction to the content 18 letters of concern on behalf of constituents, but there 19 of that article within the council when you were there? 19 were occasions -- one occasion in particular I have 20 A. I don't recall any reaction. I don't recall discussing 20 talked about in my statement -- where I felt that the 21 it with anybody in any detail at a professional level. 21 involvement went beyond an appropriate level for an MP. 22 Q. Nobody said, "We, as a council, need to look into this"? 22 Q. Let's just look at those. What was that particular 23 A. No. Not to me, anyway. 23 incident that concerned you and what was it about his 24 Q. Was it widely talked about or not talked about at all? 24 involvement that went beyond his position as an MP? 25 A. I can't recall, to be honest. I guess there would have 25 A. Well, in June 1983, I had to authorise an application Page 10 Page 12 3 (Pages 9 to 12) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 for an emergency -- what is now an emergency protection 1 Director of Social Services? 2 order, in those days, it was a place of safety order, 2 A. Correct, yes. 3 concerning a child who had to be removed shortly 3 Q. Cyril Smith was still the MP? 4 following his birth -- or her birth. I can't remember 4 A. He was. 5 the sex of the child. It is never an easy decision to 5 Q. Did he have anything to say about your appointment? 6 take. 6 A. Yes, he did. He said that it was inappropriate. He was 7 Cyril was approached by a member of staff at 7 essentially saying it was -- I was a political 8 Birch Hill Hospital about their concerns about this, and 8 appointment. I was appointed by the Labour Group. 9 he effectively was saying to me, "You know, you should 9 Q. Yes. 10 not be taking this decision". 10 A. He was going back to my previous involvement many years 11 Q. When you say "he was saying to me, 'You shouldn't be 11 previously as an active member of the Labour Party. 12 taking this decision'", was that something he did in 12 Q. How did he interfere? How did he go about that 13 formal correspondence with you or was this face to face? 13 interference? 14 A. I can't recall whether we had -- I think we did have 14 A. Well, he made it public, and I think I made the front 15 a letter from him. But certainly I had a conversation 15 page of the Rochdale Observer, putting Neil Kinnock on 16 with him about it as well. He did contact me about it. 16 the back page, as it happens, at the time on a visit to 17 He spoke to me on the telephone. 17 Rochdale. 18 Q. Just to make sure we all understand, what was his 18 Q. How did you find Smith as a person to deal with, in 19 interest? 19 a few words? 20 A. Well, his interest ostensibly was as an MP. He felt we 20 A. Overbearing, bullying. 21 were taking inappropriate action, and he saw it as his 21 Q. Did he apply pressure on you to reconsider or to 22 job to say that we shouldn't be taking that action. 22 consider your position in accepting this appointment? 23 Q. In your professional judgment, was it inappropriate of 23 A. No, no, I had limited involvement with him after that, 24 him to be interfering? 24 but I do recall him saying in a -- it was at the 25 A. I think it was appropriate for him to represent his 25 Bateman Centre in Rochdale, it was a conference centre Page 13 Page 15 1 constituents' interests. It is inappropriate for him to 1 at Birch Hill Hospital. He was there at the beginning 2 attempt to undermine a necessary professional process 2 of some function and he said, "I don't think you're fit 3 which is being carried out for the protection of 3 to do the job, Allan, and I never will". 4 a child. 4 Q. To your face? 5 Q. Did it matter, do you think, or did it affect anything 5 A. To my face. 6 or make it perhaps even more inappropriate, in the sense 6 Q. Did that hark back to the decision that you disagreed 7 that you have just described, that he was the local MP, 7 about back in 1983 or was it simply political, do you 8 or was that just a neutral matter? 8 think? 9 A. I don't think -- I was very accustomed to dealing with 9 A. Well, I don't know. Yes, I couldn't speculate on that. 10 MPs in my role as an area officer, and more so as 10 I think Cyril just liked to have his way. He liked 11 a Deputy Director of Social Services. That's an 11 to -- 12 appropriate thing to happen, you know, in terms of 12 Q. Make sure everybody knew -- 13 the responsibilities MPs have got and the 13 A. -- be in control. 14 responsibilities and the duties that local authority 14 Q. -- who was boss? 15 officers have. 15 A. Indeed. 16 Q. For example, can it be seen, his behaviour, at that 16 Q. Did he bully other officers in respect of operational 17 point in what was ultimately an operational matter for 17 matters, or was it just you? 18 your department -- 18 A. Not that I'm aware of, but I wouldn't be surprised if 19 A. Indeed, yes. 19 that had happened. 20 Q. -- against the background that not only was he at this 20 Q. You made a distinction in your statement about 21 point the local sitting MP, but against the background 21 inappropriate interference in departmental matters 22 where he was such a big, prominent figure in local 22 between Smith, on the one hand, and the then leader of 23 politics as well? 23 the council, Richard Farnell. 24 A. Yes. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That was 1983. In 1987, you were appointed as Deputy 25 Q. The distinction you made was that Cyril Smith interfered Page 14 Page 16 4 (Pages 13 to 16) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 on a sort of granular level, in the cases of 1 Q. Ian Davey was, as you say, Assistant Director of 2 individuals, whereas Farnell was perhaps more to the 2 Operations at the time. Did Mr Davey tell you that 3 sort of generalised approach to his interference, 3 John Pierce, the chief executive, was unaware of it? 4 perhaps politically. 4 A. That was my understanding, yes. 5 How else, if you are able to, or what other examples 5 Q. Did you in turn brief John Pierce? 6 can you give us of how Smith interfered on that sort of 6 A. I then briefed John on the information that Ian had 7 granular level? 7 given to me, yes. 8 A. I can only recall that example, but it was -- you know, 8 Q. Is there any significance to be read in the fact that 9 he was very active in terms of -- you know, his interest 9 before you briefed John Pierce, John Pierce was unaware 10 in matters. 10 of what was going on around those cases? 11 Q. How was he perceived generally by council officers? 11 A. Well, my recollection is that there was a press embargo 12 A. Sorry, I'm hesitating. He was a fixture around the 12 that had been imposed and the thing was being dealt 13 place. He was part of the furniture. He was a big 13 with -- the matter had been dealt with under conditions 14 character. 14 of extreme secrecy. 15 Q. Were people fearful of him or intimidated by him? 15 Q. Who had imposed the press embargo? 16 A. Well, partly that, and then I think partly, you know, 16 A. That, I don't know. 17 people would laugh it off because that's Cyril, in the 17 Q. Someone in the council, presumably? 18 way that people will say that about certain prominent 18 A. Somebody certainly, yes. That was subsequently 19 political figures, "Well, that's Cyril. That's how he 19 overturned. I think it was as a result of that that Ian 20 is". 20 thought that he'd better brief me and in turn brief the 21 Q. Did people bow to pressure from him? 21 chief executive. 22 A. Not that I'm aware of. I didn't. 22 Q. Had there been, to your knowledge, a culture of keeping 23 Q. Can we move on, please, to another topic which you deal 23 quiet when things were going wrong? 24 with in your statement, the Middleton ritual abuse case. 24 A. No, this was the only occasion when I recall this 25 A. Yes. 25 happening. Page 17 Page 19 1 Q. You remembered a point in 1990 when Ian Davey, who 1 Q. Did you have anything to do with those cases afterwards? 2 was -- was he then the Director or the Deputy Director 2 A. No. Basically, what happened was that the director and 3 or Assistant Director of Social Services? 3 Ian Davey and other staff became increasingly involved 4 A. He was Assistant Director Operations, and he worked to 4 with the management of the court case. I became more 5 me, I was his manager. 5 responsible for running the department on a day-to-day 6 Q. Did he approach you about that, the Middleton matter, 6 basis. There was a very high level of media interest as 7 during 1990? 7 well that was taking people's time up. 8 A. He did. Gordon Littlemore was on leave. 8 Q. So while they were diverted dealing with all of that, 9 Q. Gordon Littlemore -- 9 you were running the shop? 10 A. I'm sorry. 10 A. Effectively, yes. 11 Q. No, no. You mentioned a name. I know who he is. You 11 Q. As we all know, the council was the subject of severe 12 know who he is. But other people may not? 12 criticism by the court in that case. The judgment, you 13 A. My apologies, Gordon Littlemore was the Director of 13 may remember, I think, was 1 January of the next year, 14 Social Services. 14 1991? 15 Q. He was the director at the time, Gordon Littlemore. You 15 A. I know it was early 1991, yes. 16 were telling us -- did you say he was on holiday? 16 Q. That led to the resignation of Gordon Littlemore? 17 A. He was on leave. Ian came to see me and brief me about 17 A. That's right, yes. 18 the action that was being taken in relation to these 18 Q. At the time, you were, as you have said -- was your 19 cases. At the time, the chief executive was unaware of 19 official title acting director at that point? 20 it. It was being dealt with on a very strict "need to 20 A. Only very briefly, simply because the director had gone. 21 know" basis. 21 Q. But did you both, you and Ian Davey, apply for 22 Q. Was the chief executive John Pierce? 22 Gordon Littlemore's post? 23 A. John Pierce. 23 A. Well, we were invited to apply. 24 Q. This is the Middleton ritual abuse case? 24 Q. And did you? 25 A. Yes. 25 A. Yes. Page 18 Page 20 5 (Pages 17 to 20) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 Q. And he did? 1 A. No. 2 A. Well, we were invited to be interviewed, I'm sorry, 2 Q. Did you ever see any reports about Knowl View by 3 there was no application process. 3 a Phil Shepherd from March 1991 or a Valerie Mellor 4 Q. There was no application process? 4 from February 1992? 5 A. No, no. No. 5 A. No. 6 Q. But both of you were interviewed? 6 Q. Did you ever attend any meetings on topics of sexual 7 A. Indeed, yes. 7 activity by boys at Knowl View School? 8 Q. And he got the job? 8 A. No. 9 A. Indeed, yes. 9 Q. Have you seen them since, those reports, Shepherd and 10 Q. From your observations, and we can only go on your 10 Mellor? 11 observations at the time, did what happened in Middleton 11 A. No. 12 impact at all on Ian Davey, the way he approached 12 Q. The reports go into some detail. Shepherd, who was 13 children's cases? 13 brought in to give training on HIV and AIDS at Knowl 14 A. Yes. 14 View School, but it gave an opportunity which rather 15 Q. In what way? 15 diverted the process to staff at the school to inform 16 A. I think he felt he had to have much more responsibility, 16 Mr Shepherd about all the goings on, which included 17 personal responsibility, for them, much more oversight 17 exploitation of the toilets, child-on-child abuse and 18 of them. 18 that sort of thing, and Valerie Mellor was much later 19 Q. Yes. 19 brought in to assist the Director of Education on those 20 A. I think he was very concerned about the political 20 topics to find out what exactly had been going on, the 21 context. 21 history of sexualised behaviour between boys at the 22 Q. Does that mean he was concerned about what councillors 22 school, and to advise and recommend as to the resolution 23 might want? 23 of the problem. That's just a short summary of what 24 A. He was very aware of the fact that councillors had been 24 they provide. 25 affected by the criticism, and some councillors in 25 Given that you were a senior man within the Page 21 Page 23 1 particular were very unhappy about the child protection 1 department and that you were still working within the 2 process in general. 2 department in 1991 and 1992, do you think you ought to 3 Q. Did you think the effect of that, not just Middleton, 3 have known about those reports or have seen them? 4 but also Ian Davey's approach, led to over-caution 4 A. I would have expected to be. 5 afterwards? 5 Q. Can you think of any reason why you weren't even told 6 A. That was my impression at the time. 6 about them? 7 Q. Can I move on to another topic, please: child 7 A. No, only that, you know, they were clearly being -- or 8 exploitation, Mr Buckley. There is evidence in this 8 it seems they were being dealt with on a strict "need to 9 investigation, which I am sure you will appreciate, 9 know" basis again. 10 which suggests that the exploitation of children, sexual 10 Q. So the press embargo in relation to Middleton which you 11 exploitation of children, was taking place in public 11 say was eventually lifted, it looks as if, if this is 12 toilets in Rochdale, Smith Street toilets, which you may 12 right and that you weren't shown these reports, which we 13 well recall, that that was well known. Was that 13 accept -- it rather suggests that secrecy had come to be 14 something you were ever aware of, up to the point at 14 part of the culture of the council at that point? 15 which you retired, in the early '90s/late '80s? 15 A. Well, either that or, you know, Ian felt that there was 16 A. I'm sorry, I'm hesitating. I don't remember that. 16 a need for me not to be involved in those matters, 17 Q. To be fair, you don't mention it at all in the 17 because I was dealing with other things. I don't know 18 statement. 18 at the time who was directly responsible for children's 19 A. No. 19 services, because that was, to my recollection, prior to 20 Q. It doesn't ring any bells? 20 the appointment of Jane Held as Assistant Director for 21 A. It doesn't ring any bells, I'm sorry. 21 Children, so that makes it even more surprising to me 22 Q. Were you ever told anything about pupils -- in 22 that I would not have been consulted because I did have 23 particular, pupils who attended Knowl View School -- and 23 obviously some considerable operational experience of 24 their involvement in sexual activity in those toilets in 24 child protection matters, and I was the deputy director. 25 particular? 25 Q. So that we get an impression, did you all work close by Page 22 Page 24 6 (Pages 21 to 24) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 each other, physically, within offices? 1 to resolve the matter speedily, I agreed to look further 2 A. My office was next door to Ian Davey's. 2 into the concerns which the school has raised, to 3 Q. Did social services -- were these in the municipal 3 consider these in detail and to let you have a formal 4 offices? 4 response as to whether they do in fact come within the 5 A. We were in a tower block in the centre of Rochdale. 5 definition of sexual abuse between children. 6 Q. People sometimes refer to the municipal offices. Is 6 "I met yesterday, 29 May, with Freema Taylor ..." 7 that them? 7 Is that a name that means something to you? 8 A. That's the one, yes. 8 A. Oh, yes, yes. 9 Q. That's the one? 9 Q. "... area manager, Heywood (who is taking on additional 10 A. We were in a -- the senior managers were in their own 10 responsibilities as far as child protection work is 11 offices. Then there was an open-plan office outside 11 concerned) and with Annie Dodd, senior social worker 12 that for the rest of the social services staff. 12 from the Middleton area office. I considered in detail 13 Q. So we get the impression, did social services have 13 the concerns regarding three boys referred by the school 14 a floor or something like that? 14 following the meeting on 11 April 1991." 15 A. We had a floor of our own, yes. 15 Then he goes through the detail in relation to one 16 Q. So if you wanted to tell someone something, you didn't 16 boy, aged 13, involved in oral sex: 17 have to go very far? 17 "Forced to have oral sex and observed oral sex 18 A. No, no, you'd just walk across the passageway between 18 between [other boys]. These concerns have been followed 19 the two offices. 19 up by Manchester Social Services Department, who have 20 Q. I would like to ask you about a particular document, 20 responsibility for [him] and I understand that they do 21 which I think you may have seen. But if not, it is 21 not intend to proceed any further following the 22 RHC001236, please, and that's going to go up on the 22 interview which has taken place with him." 23 screen. 23 Then the second boy, aged 14: 24 I'm not suggesting for a moment that you had any 24 "The concerns are that [he] was involved in oral sex 25 direct dealings with this, but I just want your help on 25 with [another] and observed oral sex between [two other Page 25 Page 27 1 it, really. Is it up on your screen? 1 boys]. The view is that, if anything, [this boy] was 2 A. Yes, it is. 2 a perpetrator rather than a victim in these activities 3 Q. You will see it is a memorandum from the Acting Director 3 and that this does not fit the guidelines on sexual 4 of Social Services -- this is Ian Davey's document -- to 4 abuse between children." 5 the Director of Education, who was Diana Cavanagh at the 5 Then to the next page, please, another boy aged 15, 6 time. It is dated 30 May 1991, "Confidential. Knowl 6 now left the school: 7 View School". Have you ever seen this before, do you 7 "The concerns are that he was involved in oral sex 8 think? 8 with [two other boys] ... it would appear that [this 9 A. No. 9 boy] was a willing partner in these activities and that, 10 Q. Let's see if you can help us. What Mr Davey is doing is 10 as the oldest boy amongst the group, he was quite able 11 writing to her, saying: 11 to deal with any unwelcome advances. Therefore, the 12 "As you know, we met with the chief executive and 12 definition of sexual abuse between children as outlined 13 deputy town clerk on 17 May, regarding Knowl View 13 in the procedures does not apply in this case. 14 School. We discussed the concerns of the school and the 14 "In summary, therefore, as regards the three boys 15 chronology of events since the meeting which took place 15 who it was originally anticipated that we would be 16 in early March. 16 following up with interviews, this has been completed in 17 "I shared with you and with Mr Pierce and 17 one case ..." 18 Mr Shipp ..." 18 That was the Manchester boy: 19 Presumably you knew who Mr Shipp was? 19 "... and in the other two instances, the concerns do 20 A. Yes. 20 not fit the sexual abuse between children definition in 21 Q. "... my understanding regarding the allegations, which 21 the child abuse guidelines and procedures." 22 was that they do not come within the child abuse 22 Did you know about that decision? 23 guidelines and procedures definition of sexual abuse 23 A. No. 24 between children. 24 Q. Now you do, and it may be an unfair question because 25 "In view of the nature of the concerns and the need 25 perhaps it is a question of what guidelines they Page 26 Page 28 7 (Pages 25 to 28) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 followed and why they came to those views, but is there 1 Q. Is it retrospective or prospective? 2 anything that stands out from what I have just read to 2 A. It would make more sense if it was -- 3 you which would trouble you? 3 Q. The next year? 4 A. I don't recall what the guidelines were at the time. 4 A. I obviously missed that one. 5 I have to say, on seeing that, my view would be that the 5 Q. Don't worry. If it was the next year, then its 6 question of the guidelines, given the content of that, 6 commencement predated the memorandum we just looked at 7 is probably academic. I think you would be looking at 7 by 30 days. 8 what else you might do to investigate this. 8 A. Mmm. 9 Q. Such as interview boys? 9 Q. Or 29, perhaps, to be precise. Then the report goes 10 A. Well, there is that, yes, obviously, and what advice you 10 through a number of perhaps formal matters. At the top 11 might get about how you -- you know, how you follow this 11 of page 8, so the next page, please, you have got 12 through. I mean, Val Mellor, who I knew, had obviously 12 point 3: 13 provided -- or at some point provided input, but there 13 "The management of the child protection system in 14 were other -- we did have an NSPCC unit in Rochdale at 14 Rochdale 1974-1989." 15 the time, and we set up in Swinton, in 15 Including 3.3 and 3.4, material about the NSPCC, and 16 Greater Manchester, with other Greater Manchester 16 then point 4, "'Working Together' and child protection 17 authorities, a unit specifically to look at the sexual 17 in Rochdale". There had been a social services 18 abuse of children. 18 inspection around this time, just before this time. Do 19 Q. That may bring me rather neatly to another document with 19 you remember that? 20 which you were involved, a document headed "Management 20 A. I don't, I'm sorry. 21 of child protection system", which I think you may have 21 Q. They were critical -- if "critical" isn't putting it too 22 written in November 1990. Let's bring it up on screen 22 highly -- that Rochdale Social Services were relying 23 and see if it is anything that you recall. It is 23 upon guidelines from pre "Working Together", which came 24 GMP000794. Have a look at that for a moment at page 7, 24 into being in 1998. Do you remember that? 25 please. Does that look familiar to you? 25 A. I remember "Working Together". Page 29 Page 31 1 A. It does, yes. 1 Q. Clearly you make mention of it here. You have point 4: 2 Q. Let's just read it. At the top right, it is a report of 2 "'Working Together' and child protection in 3 Allan Buckley, 12 November 1990, and therefore it 3 Rochdale." 4 predates the Davey memorandum we were just looking at by 4 At (iii) on the next page, page 9, a significant 5 about six or seven months. Of course it comes after the 5 factor in the increase in volume of work has been an 6 Middleton scandal but before the judgment on 1 January 6 increase in the different types of abuse revealed to the 7 the next year. It reads this way: 7 child protection agencies, notably sexual abuse." 8 "It is considered that the committee are likely to 8 So there is a hint of what was going on there. 9 exclude the public [which is a sort of standard at the 9 At the top of page 10, the next page, the header is, 10 top of this sort of management document] ..." 10 at point 5, "Financial implications", and the next page, 11 We don't need to read the second paragraph: 11 the conclusion at the top, page 11: 12 "Purpose of report. 12 "Conclusion and relationships between the local 13 "To inform committee of the agreement reached 13 authority and the NSPCC." 14 between the officers of the Social Services Department 14 It is signed off by Gordon Littlemore, who appears 15 and the National Society of the Prevention of Cruelty to 15 to date it 2 November 1990, although the top of 16 Children that the Social Services Department should 16 the report is dated as the 12th. Are those your 17 assume responsibility for the management of 17 initials, "ALB" at the bottom? 18 the multi-disciplinary child protection system in 18 A. Yes. 19 Rochdale. 19 Q. Was this written by you before the director at the time? 20 "Recommendations. 20 A. Yes. 21 That committee approves the assumption of 21 Q. Clearly, it was before Gordon Littlemore resigned. He 22 responsibility by the Social Services Department as from 22 didn't resign until after the criticism in the judgment, 23 1 May 1990 ..." 23 presumably, the following year? 24 Did it mean 1 May 1990 or 1991, do you think? 24 A. He did, that's right. 25 A. Probably 1990. 25 Q. I have gone through that rather quickly, but is this Page 30 Page 32 8 (Pages 29 to 32) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 what you were talking about, that this was -- this new 1 knowing -- Freema and I worked very closely together 2 unit that was being set up under the auspices of 2 over a number of years. I am surprised to see that 3 the NSPCC, or not? 3 approach being taken by her, because she was, if I could 4 A. The NSPCC had come into Rochdale -- I'm trying to 4 put it this way, very interventionist when it came to 5 remember now -- sometime in the late '80s and had taken 5 questions of child protection, that there might be 6 on effectively the management of the child protection 6 another way of dealing with this in terms of 7 system. I remember at the time as an area manager 7 investigating just what was going on and what might be 8 I wasn't -- I wasn't entirely happy about that decision. 8 done to resolve the matter. 9 It took a lot of our responsibilities away, which I felt 9 Q. This may be an unfair question, and it may well be 10 we would have continued to have. It split 10 a question for Mr Davey, but in this memorandum, do you 11 responsibility, if you like, in a way I didn't think was 11 see, perhaps, between the lines, the overcaution that 12 helpful. However, the NSPCC were valuable in terms of 12 you think might have been present, or is this as 13 bringing expertise to the system, and I think the 13 a result of -- bearing in mind the judgment from the 14 origins of that report were that we'd come to the 14 High Court had been about five months previously, do you 15 conclusion that, really, we should take responsibility 15 sense that from this memorandum? 16 for the child protection system as the local authority 16 A. Not from that memorandum. I have to say, it looks to me 17 in the appropriate way. 17 as though there's just a strict interpretation of the 18 But the NSPCC unit, as I recall, continued in 18 child protection guidelines at the time. It could be 19 Rochdale for some time after that on an advisory basis. 19 that -- I'd be speculating if I were to say there was 20 Q. I brought this to your attention because just before 20 any other motive there. 21 I did you were talking about a special unit being set 21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr Buckley. Just a few other 22 up. Did you name a place in Swinton? 22 questions, then. 23 A. Swinton, Greater Manchester, yes. 23 Let me ask you a few things about Richard Farnell. 24 Q. How does that figure with all of this? 24 He was, is this right, leader of the council between 25 A. That had been set up before I was appointed deputy 25 1986 and 1992 while you were working there? Page 33 Page 35 1 director, but Rochdale had a lead role in that. It was 1 A. That's right, yes. 2 a shared initiative by all the Greater Manchester 2 Q. What were relations like between him and the 3 authorities, and it was to bring expertise about child 3 Social Services Department? 4 sexual abuse into the area. 4 A. Well, I think he was -- he was a very able council 5 I have to say, the concern I mentioned there about 5 leader. He had a lot of ideas about developing council 6 the increase in referrals and activity concerning child 6 services in a more responsive way to the public. He 7 sexual abuse does concern child sexual abuse in 7 pressed that in a very uncompromising way, and I think 8 a domestic context. 8 some of that was appropriate, in the sense that the 9 Q. Right. 9 culture needed to change. Some of it was inappropriate, 10 A. Certainly when I was area manager in Heywood, we'd begun 10 in the sense that, you know, his behaviour towards 11 to develop a lot more work in that area, become more 11 senior council officials was very often, frankly, 12 conscious of its incidence and the need to deal with it 12 disrespectful -- I don't say that personally, myself, 13 I think more appropriately than we'd been dealing with 13 but of other people. 14 it in the past. 14 Q. But from your observations? 15 Q. Was it limited to familial child sexual abuse or not? 15 A. Yes, indeed. 16 A. The emphasis was largely on that, yes. I think the 16 Q. Did he involve himself in operational matters? 17 question of institutional abuse, my recollection at the 17 A. No, but he didn't take advice on the implications of 18 time, wasn't as -- it wasn't as prominent as it is now. 18 certain council decisions or decisions that were being 19 Q. But when we come back to the memorandum from Mr Davey, 19 taken politically in terms of their implications for, in 20 do you stand by what you have told us, that there were 20 our case, the functions of the Social Services Division. 21 ways of dealing with these issues which were confronting 21 Q. Did his relationship with the department impact on how 22 the council at the time? 22 it operated? 23 A. I'm saying this with hindsight, obviously. 23 A. To the extent that we became involved in a restructuring 24 Q. Of course. 24 exercise which I personally felt was detrimental to the 25 A. But I think, had I been involved in the discussion, and 25 department's professional standards. Page 34 Page 36 9 (Pages 33 to 36) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY IICSA Rochdale Hearing 13 October 2017 1 MR ALTMAN: I think that's all I have for you, Mr Buckley. 1 Examination by MR ALTMAN 2 It may be that the chair and the panel have some 2 MR ALTMAN: Tell us who you are, please. 3 questions. 3 A. I'm Detective Chief Inspector Sarah Jones of the Greater 4 Questions from THE PANEL 4 Manchester Police. 5 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Altman. I have one question for 5 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that you were the senior 6 you, Mr Buckley. 6 investigating officer or the senior senior investigating 7 Returning to the issue of your opinion that 7 officer on Operation Jaguar from 28 April 2014; is that 8 Ian Davey became overcautious, I would like to 8 right? 9 understand a little more about how that manifested 9 A. Yes, I am the senior investigating officer. 10 itself. For example, did you think that children were 10 Q. Now, you have made a lengthy statement to the inquiry, 11 left in situations of risk as a consequence, perhaps, 11 for which we are grateful, which I am going to take you 12 or, on the other hand, is it possible that they were 12 through, and I will help you with the relevant paragraph 13 received into care precipitately, or was it something 13 numbers so that neither of us gets lost. Can we go 14 else in the way it manifested itself? 14 straight away, please, to your paragraph 6 and first of 15 A. It was, I think, in terms of wishing to have full 15 all explain what Operation Jaguar is? 16 knowledge and control over what was happening on child 16 A. Operation Jaguar is an investigation, and it was in two 17 protection matters. I don't think there was -- I think, 17 parts, so the first part was an investigation into the 18 if anything, there was more caution in terms of 18 criminal allegations made by students and pupils who had 19 intervening as a result of what had happened in 19 been at Knowl View School through its period of opening. 20 Middleton and making sure that those mistakes weren't 20 The second part of the investigation related to 21 made again. 21 allegations made against the now deceased Member of 22 THE CHAIR: Was it your opinion, in that case, that there 22 Parliament Sir Cyril Smith. 23 was more caution that possibly left children in 23 Q. So two parts? 24 situations of risk when they should have been protected 24 A. Yes. 25 by the authorities? 25 Q. Allegations of physical and sexual abuse made by former Page 37 Page 39 1 A. I couldn't say with certainty that that happened in any 1 pupils of Knowl View. That's part 1? 2 individual case. But certainly I felt there was 2 A. Yes. 3 a greater atmosphere of caution. That was my 3 Q. Part 2, allegations of abuse made against Cyril Smith? 4 impression. I hope that's helpful. 4 A. Yes -- 5 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 5 Q. The terms of reference, please, in your paragraph 7, 6 MR ALTMAN: Thank you very much for coming, Mr Buckley. 6 help us with what they were? 7 Thank you. 7 A. The terms of reference, so that's something agreed with 8 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Buckley. 8 my senior officer who directs an investigation 9 (The witness withdrew) 9 commences, and those were, "To investigate allegations 10 MR ALTMAN: Chair, there is one more witness today. There 10 of" -- 11 won't be any reading. You will see that Mr Henderson is 11 Q. Sorry, Ms Jones, because you are looking down -- 12 not here today. There is one more witness, who, with 12 A. Sorry, I will move over this way. 13 a fair wind, would be finished by around lunchtime, 13 Q. Unless the other microphone can be put on as well, 14 I think. I wondered -- I know it is early, but it might 14 I don't know. If you switch that on, so we get you both 15 be wise to have your break now and then we can resume 15 sides? 16 with the officer, Detective Chief Inspector Sarah Jones, 16 A. Is that better? 17 in one go. 17 Q. Yes. 18 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Altman. We will return at 18 A. "To investigate allegations of abuse, both physical and 19 11.40 am. 19 sexual, made to the Greater Manchester Police by 20 (11.25 am) 20 a number of people resident at Knowl View Residential 21 (A short break) 21 Home following publicity surrounding Operation Yewtree 22 (11.44 am) 22 and abuse allegedly committed by Cyril Smith. Also to 23 MS SARAH JONES (sworn) 23 document allegations of abuse made against the late 24 24 Cyril Smith committed under the current boundaries of 25 25 Greater Manchester." Page 38 Page 40 10 (Pages 37 to 40) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY