UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL CENTER FOR LOWELL HISTORY ORAL HISTORY COLLECTIONS MOGAN CULTURAL CENTER LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT LAOTIAN SECRET WAR EXHIBIT INFORMANT: THONG PHETVIXAY INTERVIEWERS: MEHMED ALI, SARAH MORRISON, AND CHAN PHETVIXAY DATE: JANUARY 4, 2008 A = ALI S = SARAH C = CHAN T = THONG W = THONG’s WIFE Tape 08.01 A: Okay. So this is interview with Thong Phetvixay on January 4, 2008. And we’re conducting this interview at 40 Crescent Street in the Highlands. So thanks for joining us this evening and sharing some time. And on the microphone this evening, on the recording, will be Sarah Morrison, if you want to introduce yourself. S: I’m Sarah Morrison. I’m an intern for Mehmed Ali at the Mogan Center. A: And Chan Phetvixay. C: I’m Chan Phetvixay. I’m also an intern at the Mogan Cultural Center. A: Good. And what we’re doing now is putting our voices on so that the transcriber, she can recognize which, whose voice is which, etc., so. So Thong, first a little background information. Where and when were you born? T: I was born in Laos. I was born in the countryside, very countryside. I born (--) I was born the first place they start the war. They start first time in my province. In Phongsaly they have two place. One part in Phongsaly they start first over there. 1 A: Okay. And what we, what we want to do as I’m thinking about this I’m going to interrupt you, what we should do is provide to the transcriber is the written names, (C: Okay) and also a little (--) So to, what was the province called again? T: Phongsaly and Huaphan. A: Okay. So at the, on a list of paper you want to write those down and get those, you might have to go check the internet to get the proper kind of spelling, and give those to Janine in kind of order. And you might even put a little phrase next to it like “place where he was born,” “place where he got married.” You know, “When he first went off to war,” and those kind of things. Now what’s the exact name of your birth place? Is there a village? T: I was born in [Ban Jiang], [unclear], Province Jiang. And oh, Province [unclear]. I made a mistake. (A: Okay) I was born in [Jiang], [unclear] Jiang, [unclear] Huaphan. [Unclear], that means Province Huaphan. A: Okay. T: I was born in 1953 on April 4. No, April 20. A: Okay. All right. Great, and what did your parents do for work? T: My parents, they was working in the farm. They make, grow the rice and they cut the wood and grow the rice. Some they grow the corn for family, (A: Yup) not for market, only family. A: Okay. So subsistence farming essentially. (T: Yup) And what were your parents’ names? T: My parents’ name, my father [Phomasay] Phetvixay, and my mother’s name is [Thum] Phetvixay. (A: Okay) My father passed away in 1983. A: Okay. And your (--) What we want to do is a little family history now. What was your father’s parents’ names? T: Oh, my father’s parents name I don’t know. A: You don’t know any of them? T: I don’t know any of them. A: Okay, and how about your mother’s parents’ names? T: I don’t know either, because I was very small, maybe I haven’t born yet that they die. 2 A: Okay. And were they all from the same province, or did they come from somewhere else. T: They all the same province. A: Okay. And was your mother born in the same village as you? T: No. My mother was born in, she told me but I’m not sure. She told me she was born in [Narn Ngum]. A: Okay. T: The same Province [Huaphan]. A: Okay, and what about your dad? T: I have no idea about my dad. A: Okay, very good. And how many brothers and sisters did you have? T: I have a little small family. I have one brother, only one brother. A: That’s it? T: Yah. A: And was that typical for Laos families from that time period? C: [Translates the question to Thong] T: No, my mother she, she have big family, but she’s bad luck. All the kids die when they were, they just born like two three months, two three years, and they die, (A: Oh!) because the place they live very far from the city. (A: Okay) We have no car. We have no medicine, no doctors. They just use like their own medicine. Like take some from root, from the root and mix together and they use it, but its not help. My mother have nine kids, but have only me and my brother left. (A: Wow) They all die. A: Did you have electricity where you came from? T: No, no electricity. No nothing. [All chuckle] Only the wood, they cut the wood and burn the wood. No, no flashlight. A: Okay. All right. So tell us a little bit about your (--) Did you go to school as a kid? T: Yes I was. 3 A: And where did you go to school at? T: The first time I go to school in my village (A: Okay) from kindergarten to grade one, something like that. And then they start the war. When they start fighting we move place to another, place to another like that. Place to place all year long from 1960 to 1965. I cannot count because too many place. (A: Really) Yah. They fighting here, they broke down, we move to another place. And they fight back, we go back like that. (A: Really) Back and forth, back and forth, life is very dangerous. A: Hm, and so you weren’t really able to go to school during that time? T: No school at all. A: No school at all, wow. And tell us the background of why they were fighting as you understand it? T: I understand why they fighting. I know when my father told me 1953 I was just born, and then the French they went to Laos. That time French covered. Friend, Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia depend on French. A: Right, they were all part of French colonies. T: Yah, yah, French colony. And then the people on that area they don’t like French and they start fighting. (A: Okay) They make small group and then bigger and bigger, bigger, like that. A: So the fighting originally was against the French? T: Against French, but Laos depend on French. We have to do everything French needed. (A: Umhm, umhm) We help French, but French not strong enough. [Laughs] They still [lose the war]. A: Now do you, did you ever meet any French people as a kid? T: No, not at all, because when I born they already out from the country. A: Okay. All right. T: I was born in 1953, they were already out. A: Okay. And so do you have any stories of any warfare when you were a kid? T: No, I can’t remember. A: Okay. 4 C: Oh, can I interrupt? A: Yah, absolutely. C: [Speaks to Thong in Laos] T: Oh, I thought you asked me before that. Yah, when I was, when I was young a lot of thing happened Ali. A: Okay. T: Myself, my brother, that time my parents very sick and they say, “Go another village, go get medicine” for them. And me and [Sing] left home about fifteen minute, but the place we were going not too far, walk about half hour. (A: Okay) When I left home about fifteen minutes they start fight over there. A: At the village you were? T: At the village I was. A: Or at the village you were going to? T: No, at my village. The place I was going to, there’s nothing. (A: Okay) They start fight over there and we cannot go back. They burn the village, all fire. (A: Really) My dad cannot walk that time, because his feet swell up, something wrong. And they crawl everywhere just to escape fire. Lucky he no die that time. And me and [Sing] we escaped to the freedom side. But the communist side, my parents. (A: Oh!) Me and [Sing] on the freedom side. That time I was eight, nine years old; (A: Wow) my brother maybe six, seven years old. (A: Okay) When they fight me and Sing ran on the field. The communist shoot us too, but lucky we no die. The bullet hit beside like this, [makes sound of shooting bullets], beside me and [Sing]. Yah, the war [chuckling], oh dangerous. And then they use that maybe B40, they shooting us, but not close. Maybe around here to my [unclear] like that. A: Okay, so maybe a 100 yards or something? T: Yes, around 100 yards. Then when explode we don’t see each other [laughs]. And then a little bit [wake up] we see us run again. A: You didn’t see your brother at first when the explosion happened? T: No, no, no, nothing. Like [makes sound] don’t know nothing, but nobody hit. Lucky. A: Yah, and that was the same time? T: The same time we escape from the fire. 5 A: From the village? T: Yah. A: And so was it the American plains bombing? T: No, they’d start fight and they shoot. (A: Okay) They use B40. You know B40? Like this? A: Oh okay. So a B40 is also the name for a plane. It wasn’t a plane. T: No, no plane. No plane. A: So what’s a B (--) T: They have bomb like this, and the, they have bomb on the, they use like (--) A: So like a rocket propelled grenade? T: Yah, it looked like a rocket, they call B40. A: B40, okay. And who made those? Was it the Soviets? T: Soviets. A: Okay, okay. T: You see in Iran a lot. [Laughs] Yah. A: Okay, so what happened after you were separated from your parents that day? T: After we separate from the parents (--) A: And I’m sorry, was there anybody else walking with you at that time? T: No, only me and my brother, only two people. They all people go in there. They make a hole to hide the bullet. They go all in there. Only me and [Sing] run away [chuckles] on the field, the rice field. A: Okay. So what happened after you got away from the village? T: After we escaped from those we live on the freedom side. And my parents live on the communist, with communist about two months, three months. My brother cry every single day, they miss parents because too little. And after that the soldier there, they feel 6 very sad and they, “Oh, I bring you back.” And the soldier bring us back to the parents. (A: Really) Yah, tried to escape from where they put the mines. A: They put mines? T: Ooh a lot of mines! (A: Okay) The solder bring me and [Sing]. “Oh, don’t go that way, mine in there. Don’t come this way, mine in there.” And they bring us until get to the village, the parents, where my parents live. (A: Okay) Because very small. A: Yah. And nobody shot at you guys that time? T: No. No, because they don’t see. Nobody see. A: Did you go night time? T: No in the day, but soldier bring over there. A: Okay. And how was your (--) What kind of feelings did you have when you finally got to see your parents? T: Oh, very happy. And a lot communist soldier, they come to interview. A: Interview you guys? T: Yes. A: What did they ask? T: They ask where’s the opposite side? Where they live? Where, what they do? They ask like that. But most people tell me and [Sing] before we go to the parents, they say “Don’t, don’t know, don’t see.” Just two words, “Don’t know, don’t see.” [All laugh] Just keep two word in there, two three word in there. “I don’t see them, I don’t know them, I escape from them.” After that they don’t ask. [All laugh] A: Wow. And you were around nine years old? T: Yah, I was around nine years old, and my brother around six or seven years old. (A: Wow) Very small. A: So when you lived on the communist side was it different? T: Yes, different. A: In what ways? 7 T: The communist side usually, that time they just want, who is the boy they want to be a soldier for them. Every day, every single day they go ask parents they want, usually they want me because I’m bigger. They want me to be a soldier with them. A: Even at age nine? T: Yah, eight, nine, ten, whatever, they take. A: Okay. And what did your parents say to them? T: They just keep saying no, too small. And then I think 1961, or 1962 the Americans plane, they go drop the bomb over there. (A: Okay) In 1962 I think. A: Okay. And tell us about that experience? What happened when the Americans came? T: When American, they drop the bomb over there, after that the people they try to escape from the village, because when they see the people in the village they don’t care, a soldier or not solder, they just drop that time. A: They just dropped the bomb. T: Yah, because soldiers and what they call civilians? (A: Civilians?) Yah, they live together. (A: Okay) After that we moved to [unclear] too. Go everywhere. After that we tried to escape from communist. (A: Okay) Escape at night. (A: Okay) No fight, but we tried to escape by ourselves. A: And so what happened? T: At that time they didn’t see. We just escaped from the village to the freedom side, because that time we stayed on the line. Yah, this side communist, this side freedom, this fight. We just escaped from this side to another side, only one day and one night we escaped from communist. A: You walked? T: Yah, walked. A: And what year was that? T: 1962. A: Okay, so the same year as the (--) T: The same year, yah. 8 A: The bombs were being dropped. (T: Yah) Now tell us about the bombs, and what your recollections are specifically. Do you remember the first time? Had you seen planes before? T: Yah, the first time. I never seen planes, the fighting planes like that. The plane look like they use on the fight with Japanese. Look like that. A: Okay, yup. And so do you remember the day when they first came? What did you think? T: I can’t remember the day, but I remember when they drop. I still stand at the temple, beside the temple and look. [All laugh] I couldn’t see many time, but I don’t, I didn’t know. Oh maybe he didn’t hear me, we died, but I don’t know. I just stand and look the [soot]. A: Yah, did anybody tell you “Get out of the way?” T: My father. “Go in there, go in the hole.” A: So where did you guys hide when the bombing came? T: No plan Ali, because everyone still working, or something like that. Just see the planes coming and they shoot (A: Really) that day. A: And nowhere to run? T: No, cannot run. Nowhere to run. A: Was there a lot of people killed with the bombing? T: No, not too many people. (A: And how many (--) I know Ali, my father sister’s son- in-law, he died. (A: Okay) The bomb explode and hit his neck, cut, that day. A: So do you think the bombing was affective? T: To the communist? (A: Yah) No, at that time not really, because (--) A: Do you think the communist used, used that against the people, like to encourage them to fight with the communist because of the bombs? C: Can you say that again Ali? A: What I’m saying is, I’m asking when the Americans started bombing were the communist able to use that as like propaganda to help their own cause with the common people? 9 C: [Translates question to Thong] T: Yah, they use a lot. They like criticizing us. (A: Okay) “Oh, American like that no good, they eat people like that.” They say that. S: Eat people? T: They say that, but no eat. [Laughs] S: That’s pretty wild. T: They say, “American people, long nose, look like” what they call [pineat]. C: Giant. T: Giant, yah. A: Really. T: Yah, yah, they say that. They just scare the people, let the people don’t believe us. A: Okay. What’s the Laos word for giant? C: [Pineat] A: [Pineat]? Okay. T: Pineat, yah. A: So after you escaped over to the other side, what did your folks do? And during this time you just continued to work and make rice, and farm? T: No. No. After we escape from the communist side to the freedom side, the UN, they helped. A: The United Nations? T: United Nations helped, (A: Okay) because we live here, we don’t have rice, we don’t have nothing. Clothes, or blankets, or anything, we don’t have nothing. That’s the United Nations helped. A: Okay. T: They give rice, they give blankets, food, everything! 10