HEARING 3 HEARING 3 BEFORETHE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE 2012 TERRORIST ATTACK IN BENGHAZI HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JANUARY 27, 2015 Printed for the use of the Select Committee on the Events Surrounding the 2012 Terrorist Attack in Benghazi ( Available on the Internet: www.fdsys.gov U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 93–579 WASHINGTON : 2015 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800 Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001 G N RI A E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 06:20 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 5011 Sfmt 5011 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI TREY GOWDY, South Carolina, Chairman LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia ELIJAH CUMMINGS, Maryland JIM JORDAN, Ohio Ranking Minority Member PETER ROSKAM, Illinois ADAM SMITH, Washington MIKE POMPEO, Kansas ADAM SCHIFF, California MARTHA A. ROBY, Alabama LINDA SA´NCHEZ, California SUSAN BROOKS, Indiana TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois PROFESSIONAL STAFF PHIL KIKO, Staff Director SUSANNE SACHSMAN GROOMS, Minority Staff Director G N RI A E H with (II) D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 03:51 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s HEARING 3 TUESDAY, JANUARY 27, 2015 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SELECT COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:31 a.m., in room HVC–210, Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. Trey Gowdy (chairman of the committee) presiding. Present: Representatives Gowdy, Brooks, Jordan, Pompeo, Roby, Roskam, Westmoreland, Cummings, Sa´nchez, Schiff, and Smith. Staff Present: Philip G. Kiko, Staff Director and General Coun- sel; Chris Donesa, Deputy Staff Director; Dana Chipman, Chief In- vestigative Counsel; Sharon Jackson, Deputy Chief Counsel; Craig Missakian, Deputy Chief Counsel; Carlton Davis, Investigator; Luke Burke, Investigative Detailee; Brien Beattie, Investigator; Paige Oneto, Clerk; Paul Bell, Minority Press Secretary; Linda Cohen, Minority Senior Professional Staff; Shannon Green, Minor- ity Counsel; Susanne Grooms, Minority Staff Director; Jennifer Hoffman, Minority Communications Director; Peter Kenny, Minor- ity Senior Counsel; Laura Rauch, Minority Senior Professional Staff; Dan Rebnord, Minority Professional Staff; Kendal Robinson, Minority Detailee; Mone Ross, Minority Staff Assistant; Heather Sawyer, Minority Chief Counsel; and Brent Woolfork, Minority Senior Professional Staff. Chairman GOWDY. Welcome, everyone. This is the third hearing of the Benghazi Committee. The committee will come to order. And the chair notes a quorum of two Members for taking testimony is present. The chair will further note—well, before I note that, consistent with the rules and practices the House, without objection—well, that point has now been rendered moot. So you have been re- appointed to the committee, and all members can participate fully. The chair will recognize himself and then the ranking member for purposes of making an opening statement. The Committee on Benghazi exists because the House of Rep- resentatives voted for it to exist and, in the process, made it very clear what is expected. If you have not read the House resolution authorizing this committee, I would encourage you to do so. For those asking for a roadmap or a scope of the investigation, or who want to know what the committee intends to do, the resolution passed by the House of Representatives, I hasten to add with seven G Democrats voting ‘‘yes,’’ answers all of those questions. N ARI (1) E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 03:51 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 2 The resolution asked this committee to investigate all policies, decisions, and activities related to the attacks, the preparation be- fore the attacks, the response during the attacks, efforts to repel the attacks, the administration’s response after the attacks, and ex- ecutive-branch efforts to comply with congressional inquiries. The operative word in the resolution is the word ‘‘all.’’ And the word ‘‘all’’ is about as comprehensive a word as you could use. So it stands to reason, if you are asked to conduct a full and complete investigation into all policies, decisions, and activities, you need to access all witnesses and all relevant documents. Because the final task assigned to this committee is to write a comprehensive report complete with recommendations on how to prevent future attacks. And to write a comprehensive report, you need access to all wit- nesses and all relevant documents. It is essential we talk to every witness with knowledge and ex- amine all relevant evidence. If six people witness an important event, you cannot credibly report on that event by examining one out of the six. Frankly, you can’t credibly report on that event by interviewing two out of the six. Each witness has a different per- spective, each witness may have observed a different fact, each wit- ness has a different vantage point, so, to do your job, you have to interview all witnesses. So, too, with documents. It is interesting, but not relevant, to note the number of pages agencies produce to Congress. What is both interesting and relevant is whether the agency has produced all documents responsive to the request. Giving Congress 10,000 pages of material out of a universe of 10,000 pages of material is good. Giving Congress 10,000 pages of material out of a universe of 100,000 pages of material does not get us any closer to issuing a final report in a timely fashion. And make no mistake, time is of the essence. The world is not a safer place, as some of you may have noted even this morning. It is not safer than it was in 2012. So the sooner we make rec- ommendations related to the improvements that make lives better for the women and men who serve us abroad, the better. Moreover, time does not make investigations or witness recollections or memories or evidence better either. The purpose of today’s hearing is to hear from some agencies and entities about the state of compliance with requests for documents and access to witnesses. And we have had some success. The State Department provided the committee with 25,000 pages of documents, previously provided to the Oversight Committee but now with fewer redactions. In ad- dition, this production included, finally, 15,000 new pages of docu- ments. These documents include significantly more traffic from State Department leadership than in previously provided informa- tion to Congress. These new documents are a reminder that no previous standing committee compiled or had access to a complete record of events, which is precisely why the Speaker constituted a select committee to produce a complete, definitive record for our fellow citizens. Additionally, as of recent, the CIA made available some of the G documents we requested in November. And while it is good to fi- N ARI nally receive the new documents, the pace at which this process is E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 03:51 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 3 moving is not conducive to the committee concluding its work expe- ditiously. And, frankly, it should not take a public hearing to make progress on these requests. Our hearings should be about sub- stance, not process. We should be analyzing documents, not waiting for them to appear. I want to read a quote. ‘‘I can promise you that if you are not getting something you have evidence of or you think you ought to be getting, we will work with you. And I will appoint someone to work directly with you starting tomorrow—with you, Mr. Chair- man, to have a review of anything you don’t think you have gotten that you are supposed to get. Let’s get this done, folks.’’ That was Secretary John Kerry, and that was in April of 2013. So my objective is simple: I want to be able to look the family members of the four murdered Americans in the eye and tell them we found out everything that we could. I want to be able to tell my fellow citizens, including the man from Oregon who sat beside me on the plane yesterday, who used to guard facilities across the world as a Marine, that we made improvements that make women and men who serve us in dangerous places safer. And I want to be able to look my fellow citizens in the eye, regardless of their polit- ical ideation, and say, this is what happened, and this is how we can make sure it does not happen again. So there will be no mystery to my questions today. There will be no trickery and no artifice. I want to know when the agencies are going to comply with the requests made by this committee so we can finish the work assigned to us, because I have zero interest in prolonging the work of this committee. And, by the same token, I have zero interest in producing a product that is incomplete. So, in conclusion, I want to be as clear as I can possibly be. We intend to access all of the information necessary to do the job the House instructed us to do. And we need to access that information now. Talking to only some of the witnesses will not work, and ac- cessing only some of the documents will not work. If you want all of the truth, then you need all of the information. And we will do it in a respectful way, worthy of the memory of the four who were murdered and worthy of the respect of our fellow citizens, but it is going to be done. And the sooner the agencies make these documents and witnesses available to us, the sooner we can do what we were asked to do. And, with that, I would recognize the gentleman from Maryland. [The prepared statement of Chairman Gowdy not supplied] Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I agree with you that we need to have all the information, we need to have all the documents, we need to have everything that you just talked about sooner rather than later. Mr. Chairman and my fellow committee members, I am a bit sad to report today that there are major, major problems with this com- mittee and its work. Democratic members have grave concerns about the partisan path this committee has taken over the past year—a path we believe undermines the credibility of the inves- tigation itself and the very things that the Chairman just said he G is fighting for—to make sure that we come out with a credible re- N ARI port. E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 06:20 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 4 We spent months trying to resolve these problems privately, but we can no longer remain silent. When the committee was established last May, many questioned whether it would devolve into unseemly partisanship. Many wor- ried that it would become a repeat of the Oversight and Govern- ment Reform Committee, where ridiculous allegations were made with no evidence—no evidence—to back them up, excerpts of docu- ments were leaked out of context to promote false political nar- ratives, and Democrats were cut out of the investigative process. I know because I was the ranking member and I was cut out over and over and over again. In response, Chairman Gowdy assured the families of Chris Ste- vens, Sean Smith, Ty Woods, and Glen Doherty that this investiga- tion would honor their loved ones by being bipartisan, fair, and based on the facts. One of the things that I said to the father of Tyrone Woods is that I would do everything in my power to seek the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God. The chairman said that he would ‘‘transcend politics,’’ and that is a quote. He stated these words, and they meant so much when he said them. He said, ‘‘If we engage in a process that is not fair according to the American people, we will be punished, as we should be, for that.’’ Unfortunately, since then, Democrats have been excluded from core components of this investigation. People may find it difficult to believe, but eight months into this investigation, Democrats and Republicans on this committee have not spoken jointly with even a single witness. Instead, we were stunned to discover that the chairman and his staff have interviewed at least five individuals on their own without including Democrats or even notifying us. We learned about these interviews from the witnesses them- selves and from press accounts, not from our Republican col- leagues. Even worse, when our staff inquired about some of these interviews, Republicans downplayed their significance. They said these interviews were not important, that one of them said noth- ing, quote, ‘‘of note,’’ and that the committee did not plan to use them. But when we spoke to these witnesses, we got a different story. They shared key facts that undermine allegations the committee is investigating. Let me repeat that. When Democrats had a chance to interview some of these individuals, they provided factual infor- mation that counters the allegations this committee is inves- tigating. Rather than bringing this information forward when the committee first obtained it, the information was buried. The chairman is right; we need all of the facts—facts that may not be consistent with some of the things that we are hearing—be- cause the families of those four Americans deserve that, and the American people deserve it—the truth, the whole truth and noth- ing but the truth. These are not actions of a bipartisan investigation, to have secret meetings with witnesses. The way to honor the four Americans G killed in Benghazi is to seek the truth, not to ignore the facts that N ARI contradict a preconceived political narrative. A credible investiga- E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 06:20 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 5 tion recognizes the importance of collecting these facts and putting to rest false allegations rather than allowing them to fester. To try to address these problems, we asked the chairman to hold a vote on basic committee rules. We just want some rules. We wanted to ensure that all members, both Republicans and Demo- crats—and I emphasize that, both Republicans and Democrats— could participate fully in the investigation and would no longer be excluded. Some may recall that our hearing in December was delayed be- cause Democrats were meeting with the chairman beforehand to discuss these problems. As a matter of fact, there were some of our Republican colleagues that had drifted into that meeting. Following that meeting, the chairman promised that we would hold a vote on the committee rules. We even met with the Speaker, and he gave his blessings. But no vote has been held. What is so disappointing is that this has been going on for months. We wrote private letters to the chairman laying out these problems in detail, hoping to resolve them. We explained that this will not be a credible, fair, or factual investigation until the com- mittee holds joint meetings, interviews, and discussions with poten- tial witnesses and includes all members in key aspects of our work. That is not an unreasonable request. In fact, it is exactly how several other committees currently operate, such as the House Armed Services Committee. And there are those who will say that, ‘‘Well, maybe it is not in their rules.’’ Well, House Armed Services apparently has not decided to move to common ground; they de- cided to move to higher ground. But today, after eight months, we still have no committee rules, so we have no choice but to make these letters public. As we explained last May when we agreed to join the committee, we need someone in the room simply to defend the truth. But we cannot defend the truth if Republicans lock us out. Until this changes, the committee will be viewed as nothing more than yet another partisan, expensive, and time-consuming campaign to con- tinue politicizing this terrible tragedy. Finally, Mr. Chairman, let me say a few words about today’s hearing. Many people are concerned about the glacial pace of this committee’s investigation. But, rather than blaming Federal agen- cies, we should acknowledge that the reason for the delay lies in the committee’s own actions. The fact is that the committee waited six months before sending its first request for new documents—six months. It took the committee almost a month longer to request witness interviews from the State Department. And even now, eight months into the investigation, the committee still has not sent a document request to the Department of Defense and it has yet to request a single witness interview from the CIA. Although I continue to believe that the best way forward for our committee is to reach agreement on a truly bipartisan approach, I can no longer say that I am optimistic that this will happen. Nev- ertheless, our door is always open, and we will always be willing to sit down in pursuit of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. G With that, I yield back. N ARI [The prepared statement of Mr. Cummings not supplied] E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 06:20 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 6 Chairman GOWDY. Mr. Rubin, you are recognized for your 5- minute opening statement. STATEMENTS OF JOEL M. RUBIN, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SEC- RETARY FOR HOUSE AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE; AND NEAL HIGGINS, DIRECTOR OF CONGRESSIONAL AF- FAIRS, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY STATEMENT OF JOEL M. RUBIN Mr. RUBIN. Thank you, Chairman Gowdy, Ranking Member Cummings, and distinguished members of the committee. It is an honor to be with you, and thank you for providing me with the op- portunity to give testimony to your committee this morning. My name is Joel Rubin, and I am the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for House Affairs in the Department’s Legislative Affairs Bureau. In this role, I serve as the Department’s chief liaison to the House, responsible for ensuring that the multitude of foreign- policy issues that the House cares about, from fighting terrorism, to preventing a nuclear Iran, to expanding our economic alliances in Asia, to supporting your constituents when they travel overseas, are dealt with both efficiently and effectively. I have served in the Federal Government for more than a decade, including both as a Hill staffer and as a civil servant in the State Department during the Bush administration. I work closely with committees and leadership in the House on a daily basis, ensuring that the Department’s relationships and communications with the House are strong. And that is why I am here before you today. As you know, the State Department has a strong record of co- operation with your committee, something which we are proud of and something that you yourself recently acknowledged, Mr. Chair- man—statements for which we are grateful. This is consistent with our work prior to this committee’s formation, as the Department has provided nearly 2 years of steady cooperation with Congress on Benghazi by responding to requests from 10 committees, through hearings with several officials, including former Secretary Clinton, and by providing more than 20 witness interviews and more than 55 congressional briefings, in addition to responding to hundreds of congressional inquiries. Since the formation of this committee in May of last year, we have provided four briefings and witnesses for two more hearings, plus today’s. And, crucially, we have produced more than 40,000 pages of documents related to the tragic Benghazi attacks, all of which are in the hands of your committee today. Since our most recent conversation with the committee last month about its top priorities, the Department has been hard at work on implementing your most recent requests for documents and interviews. Our progress has been slowed somewhat by the holidays and the briefing we provided to you on January 13th, but also by the breadth and time span of the document request itself. Nonetheless, we will begin producing documents soon to the com- mittee to meet this request. To put it bluntly, your priorities are our priorities. Therefore, in G addition to the priority documents we will be providing soon, we N ARI also look forward to continuing to work with your staff to ensure E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 06:20 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 7 that your requested interviews can proceed, so long as they do not jeopardize the Department of Justice’s investigation and prosecu- tion of the perpetrators of the Benghazi attacks. It is important to remember that from a management perspective we cannot respond to every request for a hearing, a briefing, docu- ments, or interviews simultaneously. But we can and will prioritize our resources to address each request in the order that you identify as most important to you, as the committee most recently did in December. Turning to your December requests for interviews, your staff in- formed us that, of the 22 names requested, the committee’s priority was to interview the Diplomatic Security agents who served hero- ically during the attacks. We understand the committee’s interest in interviewing these agents, and I am sure that the committee does not want to take any action that would create risks to their personal safety or their ability to do their jobs. We at the State De- partment have concerns that the requested interviews will pose precisely such risks. We also want to avoid interfering with the De- partment of Justice’s ongoing investigations and prosecutions. As a result, we have been in ongoing conversations since Decem- ber with your staff, counsel for the agents, and the Department of Justice to try to find a way forward that accommodates your re- quest without endangering these men and their families, without negatively impacting national security, and without harming the ongoing investigation and prosecution of the perpetrators of the at- tacks. We are hopeful that an accommodation can be reached. In closing, we are proud of the significant and steady progress we have made on the committee’s document and interview re- quests. We are grateful to the committee and its staff for your collegiality, and we look forward to continuing to work with the committee on its most recent priority document and interview re- quests, of which you will be seeing additional tangible responses in the near future. Thank you, and I look forward to the committee’s questions. [Prepared statement of Mr. Rubin follows:] G N RI A E H with D O R P N1 V T P T K4 S D martinez on VerDate Sep 11 2014 06:20 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 s 8 G N RI A E H with D O smartinez on DSK4TPTVN1PRVerDate Sep 11 2014 03:51 Mar 05, 2015 Jkt 093579 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A579.XXX A579 Insert offset folio 23 here 93579A.001