Oral History of Armas Clifford (Mike) Markkula, Jr. Interviewed by: John Hollar Recorded: May 1, 2012 Mountain View, California CHM Reference number: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Oral History of Mike Markkula Hollar: It’s May 1st, 2012. I’m here with Mike Markkula, and we’re going to do his oral history for the archives of the Computer History Museum. Mike, welcome. Markkula: Thank you. Hollar: So, let’s talk about your upbringing, your birth, your education, your parents, a little bit about that. Markkula: Well, I’m a fourth generation Californian. I was born right in the middle of Los Angeles at St. Vincent’s Hospital in 1942. I went to John Burroughs High School in Burbank, basically grew up mostly in Burbank. And I wanted to go to college right out of high school, but I couldn’t afford it. So, I went to Glendale Junior College for two years. And then I transferred to USC where I got a master’s degree in double E [Electrical Engineering] in 1966. So, I have a B.S. and an M.S. in double E. Hollar: When you think back to your high school days, can you think of a teacher or anyone who was particularly influential in helping you think about engineering or math? Markkula: I had a physics teacher in high school that really got me going on electronics and physics and all that stuff. And I can’t even remember his name, but he was really good. And that was stuff that I enjoyed doing, and the more I did it, the better I liked it. He probably encouraged me to be a Tommy Techie at that point, enough to cause me to start off in that direction. When I went to Glendale I took analytic geometry, and calculus, and chemistry, and all the stuff to go down that path. Hollar: And why did you pick USC? Markkula: Gosh, I was accepted at Harvey Mudd. I was accepted at Caltech, and USC. And I just went and visited each of those. And I did not like the ambience at Caltech at all. I guess I was more serious than most of the students at that point. But it just didn’t click with me. Hollar: Did it strike you as not— students weren’t working that hard? Was that it? Markkula: Well, no. They were just not applying themselves. They weren’t serious about learning, and immature, I would say is the best word. Heck, I had to work and support myself to even be able to go to college. So, it just didn’t sit well with me. Hollar: Did you work your way through junior college and college? CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 2 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula Markkula: Yeah. Yeah. Hollar: What sorts of things did you do? Markkula: Oh gee, everything from sticking records into the sleeves, to technician, to—- I used to build stereos for people because I knew they knew what I was doing. So, I’d tell them how much it would cost. And I’d go buy the equipment, stick it all together. And I worked in a gas station. I worked in an auto body shop. I’m a pretty good painter. I’ve painted a couple of cars of my own. So, I just—- whatever I could do. I worked for a catering company that catered to movie locations. And that was interesting, but boy was it hard work. Hollar: That’s a classic L.A. kind of job. Markkula: Well, living in Burbank, you have all those studios around there. So, there was that infrastructure available. And then you took whatever job you could get. I worked at Safeway, started out as a box boy, and ended up assistant manager in the produce department. You do what you can do. Hollar: Was that influential? Do you think that, looking back on it, that always having to work and bootstrap your way up had an influence on you? Markkula: Yes and no. Some of those jobs I really enjoyed. One of the technician jobs that I had was at a company called Research Craft owned by a gentleman by the name of Al Ellsworth [ph?]. And Al took a liking to me, I guess. He found out I was taking engineering and going to USC. And so, he took me out of the stuffing the records in the sleeves and gave me a job as a technician, and gave me some challenging projects to work on. And he'd leave me alone. He had a beautiful library of technical books. He’d say, “There’s the books, here’s the job I want you to do, and go do it. If you really, really need help, come and ask me.” He was great. So, every Saturday we would go down to the war surplus stores in L.A. And he’d say tell me when I get to a hundred dollars. And he would buy circuit boards, and relays, and meters, and you name it. And he had a room bigger than this room stacked floor to ceiling with different kinds of components, tubes, anything you might want, resistors, capacitors. Hollar: Was this for no particular purpose? CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 3 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula Markkula: No, particular purpose. He knew he would build something out of some of it. <laughs> So, he would give me these jobs. Go mechanize all the record presses, make them automatic so one guy could run two presses instead of two guys running two presses. I did it. Took me whole summer, but I did it. Hollar: And how did you go about that? Markkula: First I had to figure out what the presses did. They’re not very complicated. They have different cycles. And you would put the vinyl in the top, and it would— and you had to have the two halves of the record that it was going to press. And so it would fill that cavity up, and a certain amount of time at a certain temperature the vinyl would fill in the grooves of the record. And the biggest problem they had was what they call non-fill, where there’d be little bubbles or something. And the record groove would be imperfect because of little non-filled areas. Anyway, so once I figured out how that really worked and what made it go, I just built a box of relays with timers. And made that do what the guy running the press was doing. So, you just load one, start it, turn around, load another one, start it, come back to the first one, take the record out, load it. Hollar: So, it worked? Markkula: Yeah, it worked great. And it cut that cost, that part of the labor down by a factor of two. Hollar: Did your parents have any strong feelings about your being an engineer or doing something else as a career? Markkula: I don’t think so. My dad was a very inventive guy. He was always inventing something. And my grandfather had five patents. So, I guess that tinkering mentality runs in the family. Hollar: What were the patents in? Markkula: My grandfather’s patents? Hollar: Yes. Markkula: Oh gee, the most important one was a mechanism for attaching the chains that go around a railroad car with logs on it because the way they used to do that, the guy would have to go around to the side of the car where the logs were going to dump into the pond— the hold pond— and knock these chocks out. And about once a year somebody would get killed because he wouldn’t get out of the way CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 4 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula fast enough, and the logs would roll off crooked or something. So my grandfather invented a system where you could knock the chocks out from the other side. <laughs> So nobody got killed anymore. Hollar: Wow. Markkula: So, it was a simple deal, but hugely important. Hollar: Yes. Markkula: You know the three-clawed gizmo you use to pull weeds in your garden? Hollar: Yes. Markkula: He invented that. Hollar: Did he really? Your grandfather invented that? Markkula: Yeah. Yeah. And well, they were all involved with either lumbering, or woodworking. Or he would manage the railcar shop for the Union Lumber Company in Fort Bragg, California. Hollar: And was your father technical, too? Markkula: He actually was. He wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. And when he was about 20 or so, 22, he moved from Fort Bragg to Los Angeles, actually to Burbank. And took a job at Lockheed. And he was going to work and go to school. Well, he ended up being a foreman on the production line for the P- 38, and a number of other airplanes. The Constellation, if you remember that, the one that had three tails. Hollar: Sure. Markkula: Three vertical stabilizers. Anyway, he never got his degree in aeronautical engineering because his brother, who also moved down to L.A., had started an orthopedic shop that made long leg braces, and arch supports, and back braces, and all kinds of orthopedic appliances. And it was doing quite well, and he called my dad up, said— my dad’s name was Mike. I’m junior. You’ve got to come down here and be my partner in this orthopedic shop. And so, my dad decided to do that and continued doing that until he died. But, the technology involved in building a long leg brace is pretty impressive. You have to know metallurgy. You have to know how dissimilar metals will wear because you can’t have the CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 5 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula joint wear out in a funny way as you use that brace. You have to get the axis of the brace exactly right to match the axis of your natural joint. And then it has to fit like a glove. And it’s all made from scratch out of stainless steel and different parts that they would bend and weld and put together. And then they had to cover it all with leather, so that it was comfortable. <laughs> It’s really something. Hollar: It’s quite a piece of engineering. Markkula: Yeah, it’s a— and each one’s different. And, of course, the Salk vaccine almost killed their business, which is a good thing. Hollar: Sure. Markkula: <laughs> But they did a huge business in long leg braces for polio victims. And, of course, the new business stopped, but the old business continued. People came from all over the country to have my dad build them braces. They wouldn’t have anybody else do it. And I’d go down and work there on Saturdays sometimes. So, I learned a little bit about it. Hollar: So that ties right into this final part here—- about engineering being a natural fit for your interests and talent. It sounds like you came from a family with that kind of background, and also that it just fit what you wanted to do. Markkula: Well, I actually wanted to be a chemist, but I changed my mind about halfway through, decided I liked physics and electronics a lot more than chemistry. Hollar: How was the department at USC when you were there? Was it good? Markkula: Excellent. Really excellent. I think the education that engineers get at USC is tops. It’s no nonsense. You must, must, must learn how to think. If you can’t learn how to think, you’re never going to graduate from the engineering school. So, you get out of there, you have some sense of confidence that you can solve almost any problem that’s solvable because you know how to think it through. You know how to research it, whatever you have to do. Hollar: What sorts of choices did you have when you got out of school? And what took you to Hughes? Markkula: One of my professors at USC was an engineer from Hughes who was getting his Ph.D. And he was teaching a circuits course. His name was Norm Robinson. And I took his class. And I just loved it. And he was such a good teacher. I didn’t have to read the book. I’d just go to class, and he would explain CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 6 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula it so well that I could work the problems. I could get it. It was great. And he and I just became friendly. And so, he got me a job at Hughes Aircraft before I had my Bachelor’s degree. So I was the youngest member of the technical staff that Hughes had ever had. And I was the only member of the technical staff that didn’t have a degree. <laughs> It was only for like six months, and I got my Bachelor’s, but— Hollar: So, you went to work as an undergrad? Markkula: I did. I did. And I loved working at Hughes. They had some of the brightest most interesting people to work with. And we had really challenging stuff, fire control systems, and pretty interesting things that we did. The Blackbird is now retired. Do you know the Blackbird? Hollar: I do. Markkula: Aircraft? It’s kind of fun because Kelly Johnson designed that airplane at Lockheed, where my dad had worked. And we built the fire control system for the interceptor version of that airplane, which you’ve never seen. Hollar: I was going to say I didn’t know there was an interceptor version. Markkula: There was. There were three of them. And I had the velocity tracker for that. And we designed systems that did things. For example, we could see a signal twenty db down in the noise. Twenty db down we could track. And we had to do that because the closure rate was mach six. <laughs> Hollar: So, you had to see it coming from a long way away. Markkula: You got to see it coming from a long way away in a lot of clutter. And to this day, some of the things that we accomplished there, I think are— I don’t even know if they’re still top secret or not. But they’re really impressive. And I loved working there. It was just a great place. Then they— I guess they liked what I did well enough that they put me on the Master’s fellowship program. So, that was a program where you’re supposed to work twenty hours a week and go to school twenty hours a week while you get your Master’s degree. So, I did that, but I went to work forty hours a week <laughs> and went to school twenty hours a week. It didn’t seem like that much of a load to me because I loved doing what I did at Hughes. And I enjoyed the course work. So, I didn’t sleep that much. Well— so, that’s part of the story at Hughes. It was a great time. CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 7 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula Hollar: Were you always working on areas of these very high specialized airplanes like the Blackbird? Was that primarily what you—? Markkula: Yeah, all the time I was at Hughes. They also put me in charge of the stores, which was— we would either buy or get free samples from all the different companies of integrated circuits, and specialized capacitors, and relays, and gosh darn who knows what. We had a huge big room. And that stuff was used for bread boarding and developing the systems that we developed. And they put me in charge of the whole thing, which I thought was really great. Hollar: How old were you at the time? Markkula: This was, must have been 1964. So, what was I? Twenty. No, twenty-two. So, we were— I was fascinated. That was about the time that integrated circuits were just coming out. And so, we had the leading edge technology of everything that you could buy for electronics. And, of course, the sales guys wanted us to have all that stuff because they wanted us to design it in so that they would get a production order. And that was a piece of it that I thought was a lot of fun. Hollar: Who were you working with for integrated circuits at that time? Markkula: Fairchild was a big piece of that, and probably the dominant ones. And actually when I first started working at Hughes, there weren’t integrated circuits. There were 2N697s, I remember. And transistors were just making the transition from germanium to silicon. And the first ideas about integrated circuits were starting to sprout. And TTL and DTL and a couple of gates on a chip, that was exciting. Hollar: Was it your job to incorporate those components into new designs, too? Markkula: Yeah. Yeah. Most of the engineers had a chunk of the system. So, the thing was all pretty much specified, but then there were interfaces from the velocity tracker to the other parts of the fire control system. And it was a very complicated job. It had to go through all kinds of testing. We had a— what they call a shake table. And it was about a twenty-ton device that was run by these huge analog vacuum tubes. And you could shake a thousand pounds worth of stuff with this thing at any frequency at any amplitude. And you put these beautiful circuit boards and stuff on there with components sticking up. And you’d use a strobe light at the same frequency as the vibration. And you could see these things wobble. They’d just fall over. Stress test everything like crazy. So, it wasn’t just design the circuit and make it work. It was design the circuits, make it work, design the mechanical configuration it was going to be in, and then make sure that it would withstand humidity, and temperature, and cycling, and vibration, and everything else. CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 8 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula Hollar: So, you had to know a whole gamut of things to be successful? Markkula: Yeah, that made it fun. Hollar: How many people were working on this project? Markkula: I have no idea. That’s part of the secret plan stuff. I— you only know what you need to know. Hollar: And did you have to have a secrecy clearance? Markkula: Oh yeah. That was the only downside is I couldn’t go home and tell my wife what I was working on <laughs> because I was very proud of some of the stuff I did. You can’t talk about it. Hollar: You were at Hughes for a number of years, right? It looks like four years. And then you moved to Fairchild. Why did you make that transition? Markkula: Really for all the wrong reasons. But it was the right thing to do. When I got my Master’s degree in June, I thought, “I’ve been at Hughes for four years. And I love that place. And I like the people I work with, but I should see what else is available. Why not look around a little bit?” So, I went to one of these professional resume designer agencies. And put together a resume. And I went through the Sunday paper. And I sent out about 90 of them, I think, to RCA, GE, Bell Labs, Space Technology Labs, every company that I thought maybe I’d enjoy working at that company. And I thought maybe I’ll get ten responses. I think I got 100%. Hollar: And were the papers filled with classified ads for engineers at that point? Markkula: Well, an engineer at my age with four years experience, member of the technical staff at Hughes was a hot item. Hollar: Okay. Markkula: That’s why I got so many responses. So, I spent the whole summer flying around the country in some cases, and interviewing, and got a bunch of offers. But the one that really enticed me was at Space Technology Labs. They offered me a job running all of the satellite launches. I was going to have 400 physicists reporting to me <laughs> and a salary I couldn’t believe. And I would be working for the director of the whole labs who was also the chair of the stock investment committee. CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 9 of 49 Oral History of Mike Markkula Hollar: Amazing. Markkula: Or not committee, but the stock investment club they had there. And all of that stuff just— I said I’ve got to do this. So, I accepted that job. And I hadn’t resigned at Hughes, yet. That afternoon I get a call from one of the guys that I had worked with at Fairchild in stocking the stores. Hollar: This was the afternoon that you accepted the—? Markkula: This is a funny story. Hollar: Space Technology Labs job. Markkula: So, matter of fact, you have this fellow’s oral history, Jack Gifford is his name. Hollar: Oh, sure. Markkula: And Jack says, “Mike, you’ve got to come up and come to work at Fairchild as a product marketing engineer.” And I went, “Jack, you’re crazy.” He says, “No, no, no, really you have to.” I said, “Jack, I just accepted a job at Space Technology Labs.” He says, “I don’t care. You’ve got to come up and see what this is all about.” And he was a pretty strong guy. And we had become fast friends over the years, actually. Hollar: And had you put Fairchild on your original list? Markkula: Fairchild wasn’t even on my list. So, he said, “I’ll be at the airport at 5 o’clock. Meet me at the airport, and we’re coming up to Mountain View. And you’re going to meet some people.” And so I said, “You better have a fat wallet,” is what I said. Hollar: Because you were in a great position. You had all the leverage at that point. Markkula: Yeah, well I thought, wrongly, that no matter what I did, I could get a job about that quick. By 1968, there were Ph.Ds pumping gas. We had this terrible situation. Anyway, this was ’66. And so, I went up. And I went through Fairchild a bit, talked to some of the engineers, and some of the semiconductor design guys. And then they had a kind of cocktail party going on for some— I forget what for. And so, Jack wanted me to go to that. So, I did. And I met a guy who you also have, I think, an oral history of, and that’s Floyd Kvamme. CHM Ref: X6501.2012 © 2012 Computer History Museum Page 10 of 49